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Wisconsin Public Radio

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Larry and Bassam

Professor Shakhashiri is a frequent guest of the Larry Meiller Show
on the Ideas Network of Wisconsin Public Radio.

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November 6, 2007 Larry Meiller Show

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The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers.

Larry noted that Professor Shakhashiri's 38th annual Christmas Lecture is coming up. All the free tickets have been distributed, but "Once Upon a Christmas Cheery in the Lab of Shakhashiri" the program will be telecast on Wisconsin Public Television on the following dates: Friday, December 21 4:30 p.m., Friday, Dec 21 4:30 pm, Sunday, Dec 23 8:00 am, Monday, Dec 24 12:30 pm, Tuesday, Dec 25 12:00 noon, Friday, Dec 28 1:00 pm and Monday, Dec 31 9:00 am. For date and time of telecast elsewhere around the country check local PBS and cable stations listings. The Christmas Lecture is in the tradition of the great British scientist Michael Faraday, who gave very popular Christmas lectures in the early 1800s. Faraday's run lasted 19 years, which Professor Shakhashiri is about to double.
Larry asked about a conference at Oregon State University, which Professor Shakhashiri attended, on the role of the scientist as educator and public citizen. Professor Shakhashiri said scientists have a duty to communicate with the public at large as well as with each other to share not only their results but their values. Science and technology play an ever-increasing role in society, which makes science literacy critical, he said, and scientists must take a more active role
Professor Shakhashiri noted that Oregon State was the alma mater of Linus Pauling, the only person to receive two unshared Nobel Prizes in two different areas. Pauling received the Chemistry Prize in 1954 "for his research into the nature of the chemical bond and its application to the elucidation of the structure of complex substances", and in 1962 the Peace Prize for his efforts to end atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons.
Professor Shakhashiri called on scientists to renew their commitment to communicate the excitement of science, the potential benefits of new discoveries and the potential harm. He noted that Nobel Laureate James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, resigned recently as head of the Cold Spring Harbor Lab he has directed since 1968 after Watson made what Professor Shakhashiri called "irresponsible comments" about race. Watson later apologized, but Professor Shakhashiri said scientists have an awesome responsibility to communicate with the public at large, to talk about the bad as well as the good and not ignore incidents like Watson's comments.
A caller complained that news reports often use attributions like "officials say" or "studies show" without citing the sources. Professor Shakhashiri agreed, and said he hoped journalists were listening. He said studies can contradict each other, and science makes progress through skepticism, so there's a need to know the sources. He noted that the University of Wisconsin-Madison includes the name and contact numbers of researchers when it issues news releases about research.
A caller asked about the flight of frisbees. Identifying himself as a disc golfer, the caller wanted to know if frisbees fly better in cold or warm weather. Larry said that, as a golfer, he's sure that golf balls don't go as far in cold weather. Professor Shakhashiri said several factors could be at work.
Another caller noted that cold air is denser than warm air. That would support Larry's contention-denser air would furnish more resistance to a golf ball. Professor Shakhashiri urged callers and listeners to conduct experiments to find the answer.
Another caller, who identified himself as a flight instructor, noted that aircraft get more lift from denser cold air than from warm air. A frisbee gets lift just like an airplane wing, but the denser air also causes more drag.
Another caller offered an analogy: If you imagine an ever-thickening atmosphere, at some point it would become thick enough to stop the frisbee completely. At the other extreme, if the atmosphere were eliminated, the frisbee would not fly at all and would behave like any other object thrown in a vacuum. The caller suggested there's a sweet spot somewhere in between where the frisbee flies best.
A caller asked about the plans to build a super particle collider in Texas, asking if it was ever built. The superconducting super collider, intended to study atomic particles and the composition of matter, was not built. In the early 1990s, Congress decided that the cost was too great and refused to fund it. However, another large super collider has just been completed in Switzerland by the international atomic agency CERN. Another caller wondered about the method used by atomic colliders. He said it sounded like smashing two watches together and examining the pieces that fly off to determine how a watch works. But there's no simple tool to take an atomic nucleus apart. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to break up a nucleus, which is why the giant colliders accelerate particles to extreme speeds before colliding them. Professor Shakhashiri said great discoveries of atomic structure have been made by smashing nuclei.
A caller asked about research at the University of Toronto by Professor Ted Sergeant using nanotechnology to enhance the efficiency of photo voltaic cells. The caller said the professor's book is "Dance of the Molecules". Professor Shakhashiri said there are thousands of researchers worldwide looking into both nano technology and solar power. An excellent web site to consult is http://www.mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/.
A caller asked by wind turbine blades are so thin. He noted that the sails on a boat are as large as possible to catch more wind, and wondered why wind turbine blades are not thicker. Professor Shakhashiri said the answer may be related to the speed of the rotation and the weight of the material. Bigger blades would require more wind to turn, while thinner ones could take advantage of lighter winds. For information about wind power please visit http://www.science.org.au/nova/037/037key.htm.
Larry noted that two UW-Madison faculty were recently honored at the White House as recipients of Presidential Early Career Awards for Scientists and Engineers (PECASE). Ahna Skop, Assistant Professor of Genetics and Medical Genetics, College of Agriculture and Life Sciences and School of Medicine and Public Health, was nominated by the National Science Foundation for her research on molecular mechanisms involved in cell division. Sterling Johnson, Associate Professor of Medicine, School of Medicine and Public Health, and Middleton Veteran's Administration Hospital, was nominated by the Veteran's Department for his research on neural disorders related to aging and brain damage. Professor Shakhashiri said the awards are a great honor-only 58 were bestowed nationally this year. The awards are intended to stimulate innovation, increase awareness of careers in science, and connect basic research to real life. Each recipient receives up to five years of research support from the nominating agency.
A caller asked about static electricity, saying she could not get into or out of her car without getting a shock. She also said her mechanic reported there was nothing wrong with the car. Larry said he has the same problem when air is dry during the heating season, and that he quickly touches the car without letting a spark to jump from car to finger. Another caller said he uses his key. He said touching the key to a metal part of the car draws the static spark, but that the holder of the key can't feel it (though he said you can see the spark at night).
A caller asked whether the dangers of nanotechnology are real or just fodder for science fiction. Professor Shakhashiri said every new development must be carefully scrutinized for possible adverse consequences. He said the public should not be scared, but should insist on responsible investigation of any potential danger. As with all technology, he said the result depends on what we do with it. Many researchers involved in the area are concerned about potential danger, and Professor Shakhashiri said it's not science fiction but a reasonable concern.

September 20, 2007 Larry Meiller Show

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The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers.

Larry began by calling attention to a special anniversary. September 17th was the 50th anniversary of Professor Shakhashiri's arrival in the United States, along with his family, from his native Lebanon (he became a citizen in 1974). Professor Shakhashiri said they have been 50 wonderful years for the entire family (his parents are deceased but he has two sisters and their families as well as his own family in the U.S.). Professor Shakhashiri said it's a privilege to be a US citizen, something many Americans take for granted. Calling the United States "the most advanced society in the history of the world", Professor Shakhashiri said that, nevertheless, it's not perfect, and everyone has a responsibility to strive to improve our society.
Professor Shakhashiri's father was a medical doctor specializing in public health. He came to the U.S. on a one-year sabbatical to the Harvard School of Health, ended up extending his stay every year, and finally joined the National Institutes for Health. Professor Shakhashiri said the family visited Madison in 1958 to see his father's sister, who was a graduate student at UW-Madison. He had no inkling that 12 years later he would join the faculty of what he calls "one of the greatest institutions in the world."
Professor Shakhashiri said the future is up to us, depending on what we do with advances in science and technology. He invited callers to offer their opinions on the most important scientific and technological changes in the last 50 years. Professor Shakhashiri said one of the biggest changes has been in space exploration. Shortly after his arrival in the U.S., the Soviet Union launched Sputnik on Oct. 4, 1957 which was a shock to the United States which was seen by some as a military threat. The result was a huge influx of support for science and math education as well as a huge commitment to the space program.
A caller asked about news that a UW-Madison laboratory doing research on the Ebola virus has been sanctioned by the federal government over safety regulations. The UW says the lab never assembled a living Ebola virus and that there has been no danger to the public.
A caller said he was a student at the UW-Madison in the early 1970s and had a roommate who took Professor Shakhashiri's introductory chemistry course and throughly enjoyed it. The caller asked about the whereabouts of two of his own favorite chemistry professors. Professor Shakhashiri said Professor Alex Koch is retired and living in Colorado and Professor John Walters left the UW to teach at St. Olaf College and has since retired. Professor Shakhashiri said it was delightful to get a call asking about former teachers, acknowledging their service. He urged alumni to get a copy of The Badger Chemist, an annual publication of chem department news available to all chemistry graduates (the next edition will be out soon). Grads can get a copy by contacting the chemistry department or contacting Professor Shakhashiri through this web site. Archived copies are at: http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/UW/subcollections/BadgerChemistAbout.shtmlhttp://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/UW/subcollections/BadgerChemistAbout.shtml
Professor Shakhashiri said contact with students and parents is precious. He told of a recent trip to Door County, Wisconsin, to participate in the WaterFest program at Crossroads at Big Oak. A parent of a former student of Professor Shakhashiri's initiated the invitation. Professor Shakhashiri gave several lectures and visited a middle school, and said such connections are very important and contribute to a sense of community. Professor Shakhashiri said he was very pleased to meet at WaterFest the father of a current student in his first-year chemistry course.
A caller said science and religion seem to conflict, but that truth should be a part of religion and the two shouldn't conflict. Professor Shakhashiri said science and religion are different domains of human endeavor and can be made to conflict, but that conflict is not inevitable. Professor Shakhahsiri tries to communicate the values of science to all audiences, including religious ones, and as long as the two sides maintain mutual respect, meaningful discussions are possible. In many cases, respect is missing, he says, and then the dialogue becomes a shouting match and is not productive. He said the public should realize the limitations of science, what it can't do as well as what it can do, and while two people may disagree, they can maintain mutual respect.
A caller who identified himself as a newly retired chemistry teacher in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, said he relied on Professor Shakhashiri's Chemical Demonstrations: A Handbook for Teachers (a four volume set). The caller asked what advice Professor Shakhashiri would have for new chemistry teachers just starting out. Professor Shakhashiri said one of the most important qualifications is competence in the subject matter (whether the subject is chemistry or something else). He said the teacher should know more than what's in the textbook and have a broader understanding of the subject. In addition, he said a teacher should be committed to the profession of teaching and to helping students learn, finding ways to communicate effectively. He said science can't be learned overnight and that it's more than just memorization of facts. Finally, he said a teacher should convey the right attitude about science, which includes many elements such as observing safety procedures and the ability to correct mistakes while still positively reinforcing student learning. While he always says, "Science is fun", Professor Shakhashiri said what that really means is, "Learning is fun!"
Another caller, following up on space travel as one of the biggest changes of the last 50 years, asked about news that Japan has sent a lunar orbiter. Professor Shakhashiri said space exploration is only one of many big changes in the last 50 years. Another is in the area of the environment. We have learned a lot more about pollution, the ozone hole and global warming. Other areas are advances in health care and issues related to education. Professor Shakhashiri said we must be responsible in dealing with change because the sovereignty of the planet is in question and the future will be based on what we do today.
Another caller said the only reason he passed a college physics course was a teacher who made it interesting. He added that his daughter took Professor Shakhashiri's introductory chemistry course and reports that he was terrific. Professor Shakhashiri thanked the caller for his complement but added that, while teachers can inspire, the students must do the work and they deserve the credit. The caller said he has two daughters in college and wondered what security measures have been taken in the wake of the shooting last spring at Virginia Tech, specifically, if there are drills concerning what to do in case of an attack. Professor Shakhashiri said there have been no drills. Fire drills are routine (the chem department had one yesterday). Professor Shakhashiri said he has thought about what to do in case of at attack in his classes but hasn't shared his plans because he doesn't want to be alarmist. He said the possibility of drills is an important subject which he will raise with his colleagues. He also noted that the University administration has reviewed security measures with the campus police.
A caller asked about the cost of medical care, and said the amount of taxpayer funded research is far greater than the amount of money provided by private sources, and that government sources pay at least 45 per cent of health care costs. Professor Shakhashiri said he is not familiar with those figures. Professor Shakhashiri said it takes a lot of research and testing to get a drug to market. Health care is a huge investment and he noted that it's a big issue in the upcoming presidential election as most polls show health care costs are the number one issue for voters, displacing taxes and crime, which have topped the list for decades.
A caller said his own family has gained personally from stem cell research, and noted that the issue involves more than embryonic stem cells, the center of the controversy. The caller said stem cell research is one of the biggest developments of the last 50 years. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that the stem cell debate has been narrowly focused and needs a broader view of the ethical questions and benefits to society. The result of any new invention or discovery depends on what we do with it, he continued. "Once invented, you can't un-invent the gun", he said. "The result depends on what you do with it, and it's impossible to predict what the effect of a discovery will be." For example, early research on radar led to the development of the MRI, magnetic resonance imaging, which is now a mainstay of medicine. Those researchers could not have foreseen this use of their discoveries. For all discoveries and inventions Professor Shakhashiri said "It all comes down to responsibility."

June 28, 2007 Larry Meiller Show

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The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners.

Professor Shakhashiri began with a tribute to Don Herbert, television’s “Mr. Wizard,” who died recently at the age of 89. Mr. Wizard pioneered science on television in the 1950s, introducing millions of people to the wonders of science, including Professor Shakhashiri. After he immigrated to the U.S. in 1957, Professor Shakhashiri got his first impression of American television from Mr. Wizard. It was a live program, and Professor Shakhashiri said it was obvious that Mr. Wizard was a relaxed and confident performer, dedicated to his work, and that he was also learning from the experience. Professor Shakhashiri dedicated one of his books to Mr. Wizard, the fourth volume of Chemical demonstrations: A Handbook for Teachers. The dedication reads, “To Don Herbert, TV’s Mr. Wizard, who perfected the art of communicating science to children of all ages.” Professor Shakhashiri considered Don Herbert a good friend and mentor, and said he left a great legacy, including many people around the world who became scientists because of his influence. In 1998, Prof. Shakhashiri and Don Herbert both received the Presidential Science Initiative Award at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, Connecticut. Here is Don Herbert's obituary from Science magazine.
A caller asked whether any recordings of Mr. Wizard’s programs are available. Yes, they can be found at the Mr. Wizard web site, www.mrwizardstudios.com. His family is keen on maintaining his legacy.
Another caller remembered a specific experiment that Mr. Wizard performed, making carbon dioxide by mixing baking soda and vinegar in a beaker. He then put out a candle by pouring the CO₂ over it.
Other callers also remembered Mr. Wizard. A caller recognized immediately by Professor Shakhashiri as emeritus chemistry professor Marv Lang from UW-Stevens Point, recalled seeing Don Herbert in 1994 at an awards luncheon for chemists, and was impressed by his ability to captivate an audience, even an audience of science professionals.
Another caller said he grew up with Mr. Wizard, who was responsible for his career as an engineer. That caller remembered Mr. Wizard putting bottles of carbonated beverages in an ultrasonic cleaner, causing them to spout like geysers. The caller compared it to the currently popular experiment of putting Mentos in Coke (which also produces a geyser). That caller also remembered a program, Things of Science, in which children were sent a science kit every month, with materials and instructions for experiments. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s hard to get science kits today because of regulations and fears about selling chemicals. While some chemicals are dangerous, Professor Shakhashiri reminded listeners that everything is made of chemicals, and said the fear of chemicals borders on phobia. He noted that Wired magazine had a recent article bemoaning the lack of chemistry kits for children. While computer simulations of experiments are readily available, he said that’s not the same as doing it yourself. He also noted that many experiments described on the Internet involve explosions or other potentially dangerous activities. While the Internet can be an excellent source of information, Professor Shakhashiri warned that not all sites are equally good and urged listeners to use common sense in evaluating sites. He also said that Don Herbert was interested in learning, not just “gee whiz” demonstrations. Professor Shakhashiri uses some “gee whiz” demonstrations himself to capture attention, he said the emphasis is always on learning as the primary goal and safety as a main consideration.
A caller asked about another science program, Science Fantastic, a national call-in radio program heard for three hours on Saturday night with host, Michio Kaku, a professor at City University of New York. Professor Shakhashiri said he hasn’t listened to it himself, but has heard and read about it, calling it a good effort to improve the understanding and appreciation of science. Professor Shakhashiri said that science programs in the media have a big effect–he told Larry that every appearance on Public Radio brings a lot of questions and encouragement, both via e mail and from people he meets. Professor Shakhashiri added that the gold standard for quality science on the radio is Science Friday with Ira Flatow, on National Public Radio Friday afternoons.
A caller asked about capturing carbon to prevent the production of carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas that most scientists now consider the biggest cause of global warming. Some coal fired power plants already have scrubbers to remove sulfur dioxide, the chief cause of acid rain, and scrubbers could be used to also remove carbon dioxide. Chemical reactions could then break down the CO₂ and isolate the carbon. Professor Shakhashiri said the main impediment to implementing such technology is the cost.
Another caller complained that many sports people don’t take seriously problems like chronic wasting disease in deer or the discovery of a deadly virus in fish in the Great Lakes, and that they lack knowledge about the problems. Professor Shakhashiri said ignorance is our worst enemy, which is why science literacy is so important. For example, parts of the Midwest have recently been under ozone alerts. Professor Shakhashiri said ozone is a poison, and the alerts mean that people should curtail outdoor activities, like mowing lawns, adding that running mowers just adds to the problem. Larry said that when he was on a fishing trip to a northern Wisconsin lake, local people told him the state Department of Natural Resources was netting muskies, taking them out of the lake to stock lakes in southern Wisconsin. Larry looked into the claim, and found that the DNR was netting fish in order to put transmitters on them, and that the DNR actually stocked the northern lake with additional fish every year. But when he told the local people what he had learned, they didn’t believe him. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s the responsibility of the agency to explain its actions better.
A caller asked, “What’s the difference between a hypothesis and a theory?” Professor Shakhashiri said that’s a profound question because it’s very important to use language accurately. Professor Shakhashiri urged the caller to look in a dictionary, and said he would look up the words himself. While the words have meanings in everyday language–any idea or assertion can be called a theory–their meaning in science is more specific. From the American Heritage Dictionary:

hypothesis: c. “A conjecture that accounts, within a theory or ideational framework, for a set of facts than can be used as a basis for further investigation.”

theory: a. “Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances; especially, a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.”
Finally, Larry asked about fireworks. With the Fourth of July coming up, the SCIENCE IS FUN web site features information about fireworks. Professor Shakhashiri urged people to enjoy watching fireworks, and also to remember what the celebration is about, Independence Day and the liberty that all Americans enjoy. “I don’t want to get choked up about this, but I am”, he said. “We live in the best country in the history of humankind, and we want to keep it that way.” For more on the Declaration of Independence please visit the National Archives web site.

May 17, 2007 Larry Meiller Show

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The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners. Professor Shakhashiri spoke via telephone from the Chemical Heritage Foundation in Philadelphia.

Larry began by congratulating Professor Shakhashiri on his receipt of the 2007 National Science Board Public Service Award. This prestigious award, with only one recipient each year, is made by the board which oversees the National Science Foundation. Recipients of the award are chosen for contributions in areas such as: increasing the public’s understanding of the scientific process and its communication; contributing to the development of broad science and engineering policy; promoting the engagement of scientists and engineers in public outreach; and fostering awareness of science and technology among broad segments of the population. Professor Shakhashiri said he’s humbled by the honor, which is a reflection on the great environment of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, which engages students, staff and faculty to excel.

Commenting on the end of another academic year, Professor Shakhashiri congratulated all graduating students and thanked their parents and the rest of their families for their support. Professor Shakhashiri gave the commencement address last week at the University of South Carolina–Aiken. He said it was a thrill to see the graduating students about to embark on making their contributions to their communities. He said education is the key to success and bringing about change, and urged graduates to work hard to pay back their communities and society at large.
Larry asked about the American Competitiveness Initiative proposed by the President at the urging of Congress to promote scientific education and research. The proposal is now working its way through Congress with bi-partisan support. Among other things, it would increase the budgets of the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy and the Department of Education. Though research and development investment in the United States remains the largest in the world, thanks to the huge generosity of American taxpayers, Professor Shakhashiri said the country is at some risk of losing its competitive edge. He’s pleased with the bi-partisan support for the Initiative and said the U.S. must stay in the lead in research and development because it benefits the country and, eventually, the entire world.

A caller asked whether funding is the answer to getting more people into careers in science and technology, or whether pop culture and social values are defining what’s important. Professor Shakhashiri said money is only a means to an end and can’t be the only answer–he said it’s also a matter of attitude. Governments and elected officials are showing that they want to support research and education, and he said all of us, as citizens, must insist on good outcomes in the use of our money. The caller, who identified himself as a mechanical engineering student, said few people seem to be interested in science and technology. Professor Shakhashiri said there is currently a lot of emphasis on recruiting more and better math and science teachers and improving the environment for them to teach.

Another caller, identifying herself as a grandmother, said children love science and math when they have good teachers, but said many teachers can’t make them exciting. The caller said that in her experience, schools generally are not good at getting students excited about math and science. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that teachers are the key in nurturing the curiosity of children and giving them learning opportunities, but added that parental involvement is also critical. Many of the programs offered by the Wisconsin Initiative for Science Literacy also involve parents and other family members. He said all of society must be involved to ensure a good learning environment. Professor Shakhashiri noted that teachers are required to do many things besides teach their subject, such as ensuring school safety, sometimes under difficult conditions. “I’m impressed by what teachers do, and depressed by the many things they are required to do,” he said. He added that there’s a nationwide teacher shortage and a need to attract good new teachers in all areas.

Another caller, listening on the web from Seattle, Washington, said there’s too much emphasis on pedagogy, taking education courses, and not enough on a teacher’s knowledge of the field. Professor Shakhashiri said teachers must be enthusiastic and inspiring to nurture curiosity. He said the purpose of education is to enable people to fulfill their potential–he describes himself as a talent developer–and this requires good curriculum, enthusiastic teachers and administrators, and the support of the entire community. Professor Shakhashiri said teacher’s salaries are too low, a reflection of society’s values, and that everyone who cares about education should work to increase the salaries to attract and keep the best teachers.

A caller said the University of California–Berkeley is putting lectures on the internet for free and asked about resources for non-students. Professor Shakhashiri said many institutions, including the UW-Madison are trying to reach all learners, not just enrolled students. He said there are many programs available in most areas and urged listeners to check out University web sites, local government and school district cable channels such as cable channel 10 in Madison, and programs available from science centers, museums, zoos and gardens.

February 13, 2007 Larry Meiller Show

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The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners.

Larry asked about the president’s proposed budget for fiscal 2008. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s fairly good for some federal agencies involved in science and technology, including the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy, the National Institute for Science and Technology and NASA. He said it provides big increases for the Department of Defense, but the National Institutes for Health does not fare so well (details at http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd//prel08p.htm. ) Professor Shakhashiri said advocates for bigger budgets are not a special interest group, since science and technology drive the economy. He said federal support for science and technology are critical and he urged all citizens who believe in the democratic process to get involved and help come up with a balanced portfolio for all needs.
Larry asked about a recommendation from a presidential commission for a new national council to co-ordinate and promote science and technology education. The draft report was approved in January by the Commission on 21st Century Education in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics, which reports to the National Science Board, the governing body of the National Science Foundation (http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/edu_com/). Professor Shakhashiri said this recommendation is already controversial because it would centralize some functions that are now up to the states. He said it would set, but not dictate, national education standards (adding that these would not be standards enforced by the federal government, but guidelines for the nation.) Many national groups and states have already issued education standards, but Professor Shakhashiri said some type of national co-ordination is needed. He added that institutions of higher learning must be included to ensure the production of high quality teachers. He said a shortage of good teachers has the makings of a national crisis.
While there are pockets of excellence in education around the country, he said many schools need help, not just federal money, but helping in empowering parents and teachers and establishing better curriculum.
A caller who said his wife is a student math teacher said Wisconsin has very high standards for the knowledge of subject matter but does not test for the ability to teach. He said this discourages new teachers who have to achieve a much higher level of competence than needed to teach, but are not rewarded for the ability to teach. Professor Shakhashiri said knowledge and teaching skills should go together. He said it’s not enough for teachers to be competent in subject matter. He said they must be competent in subject matter but also be committed to teaching and to the success of all students. One recommendation of the president’s commission is establishing a national certification of teachers which would serve as a guide for states and school districts. Professor Shakhashiri said that would be desirable because of our very mobile society in which students and teachers often move between states.
The next caller disagreed with the previous caller. Saying that he is a former teacher, the caller said many teachers today have too little knowledge of their subjects. He said the emphasis now is on teaching methodology with no requirement that teachers have a passion for or deep knowledge of their subjects. Professor Shakhashiri repeated his insistence that both subject matter knowledge and teaching ability are needed. He said there is a risk of becoming too enamored with technique and methodology, though he also noted that in the past 30 years there’s been a lot of advancement in understanding how people learn, and teachers should understand insights offered by psychological and neurological science regardless of the subject matter they teach. Professor Shakhashiri says when he’s asked, “What do you teach?”, he answers, “I teach students.”
Larry asked if school districts, faced with a shortage of qualified teachers, must sometimes settle for teachers that are weak in either subject matter or teaching ability. Professor Shakhashiri said this is another reason for a coordinated effort at the national level.
A caller noted that most of the money for education comes from the state and local levels of government and said it’s dangerous to believe that federal officials are more capable of making decisions. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that decisions should be made at the local level, and said the national coordinating council would not have the power to dictate unfunded mandates on state or local governments. He is opposed to unfunded mandates from either the state or federal government levels. Under the plan Professor Shakhashiri supports, federal certification would be a guideline, which would help school districts in the case of teachers coming from other parts of the country, but he says school districts should still be able to hire teachers without regard to whether they have the federal certification. But he added that he would like all of his students in freshman chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison to have the same background regardless of which high school they went to or which state they come from.
Another caller, noting that the debate over the goals and quality of education has been going on for decades, said he was dissatisfied with the quality of education even in a wealthy Wisconsin suburb which is considered to have excellent schools. The caller said he went to school in Europe, where education is better, and asserted that the teachers in his school district don’t know what they are doing. Professor Shakhashiri noted that parents have different expectations in respect to education and the U.S. does not have the monolithic approach to education that many other countries do. He said we should study what others do and learn from them, but also said he would not change our systems (plural) for any others in the world. Professor Shakhashiri said pluralism and diversity is a strength, and he predicted that the debate over education will continue for many years to come, and he said other countries are not having similar discussions.
Larry mentioned another approach to teaching science and technology, Cyberchase, a game available on www.pbskids.org. Professor Shakhashiri recommends the web site, saying that it instills interest and enthusiasm for science, but he also said the best learning is through human interaction. He said the web site, and other media, are useful learning tools, but that teachers and parents should not abdicate their responsibility for teaching.

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