SCIENCE on
Wisconsin Public Radio

Professor Shakhashiri is a frequent guest of the Larry Meiller Show on the Ideas Network of Wisconsin Public Radio. His next appearance will be at 11:00 am on Thursday August 6th, 2008.

Below is some information about past shows.

Past Appearances 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997 and earlier

The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers

• Professor Shakhashiri began by talking about fireworks. With the Fourth of July coming up, there will be hundreds of fireworks displays in the U.S. including a big display called Rhythm and Booms in Madison on June 28. Many chemical transformations take place in a burst of fireworks, and Professor Shakhashiri said putting together a fireworks show is an art as well as a science. Fireworks provide displays of color and sound (and also smoke, though it is not very visible after dark). Three types of energy are created, light, sound and heat, though the heat is not detectable from the ground. The loud noises are the result of the very rapid release of energy into the air at speeds faster than the speed of sound, so that the result is a sonic boom similar to that created by a aircraft flying faster than sound.
  
  
• The colors of fireworks come from metallic salts. The atoms of metals take on energy and then immediately start giving it off in the form of light. Each element has a characteristic color. Fireworks are made very carefully, by hand, and are ignited by time delay fuses. Professor Shakhashiri said making fireworks displays is a dangerous and exacting profession. He urged everyone to obey safety rules and let the professionals make the displays. Fireworks are classified as both low and high level explosives. The initial lift comes from a low level explosive, while the air bursts are high level explosives. A more complete explanation of fireworks is available on this web site http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/fireworks/fireworks.htm.
  
  
• Professor Shakhashiri also noted that the Wisconsin State Journal newspaper in the edition of June 27, 2008, will have an article about fireworks on which he served as a consultant. The Wisconsin State Journal’s web site also has in interactive feature about fireworks which he urged listeners to view at http://www.madison.com/wsj/media/fireworks08/index.html.
  
  
• Professor Shakhashiri also urged listeners to remember what the Fourth of July celebration is all about, Independence Day. He distributes to his classes a pamphlet printed by the University of Wisconsin-Madison called “American Trilogy”, which contains the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (the bill of Rights is part of the Constitution but is highlighted separately). Professor Shakhashiri said the celebration is about the freedom and the great heritage and traditions Americans enjoy. Professor Shakhashiri is very excited about Independence Day this year because he is celebrating the 50th anniversary of his arrival in the United States from his native Lebanon and is grateful to be a US citizen
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• Larry asked about a rew report from the Rand Corporation which says the United States still leads the world in science and technology. This seems to contradict other reports and studies which say the U.S. is at risk of losing its lead. Professor Shakhashiri said the reports are not necessarily contradictory, though the Rand report, http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/06/12/, challenges the prevailing belief that advances in the rest of the world put the leadership of the U.S. at risk. Professor Shakhashiri noted that science and technology have no geographic boundaries, and the Rand report says the nation must put together an effective national policy designed to serve everyone. The America Competes Act, passed by Congress and signed by the President, says other countries are catching up and casts doubt about the ability of the U.S. to compete economically since science and technology drive the economy. The Act calls for a summit conference which will be held in August at Oak Ridge National Laboratory to analyze the status, progress and challenges facing the U.S. and to develop policies to keep the nation competitive and promote the use of science and technology, http://www.ornl.gov/sci/natlscitechsummit/index.shtml.
  
  
• A caller, who has watched Rhythm and Booms from a distance and noted the large amounts of smoke created by the display, wondered whether the smoke is toxic and contains heavy metals.
  Professor Shakhashiri said the amount of metal salts in fireworks is relatively small. While it might be hazardous to be directly underneath fireworks, and breathing the smoke would not be a good idea, the crowds are always separated from the fireworks, and the smoke disperses. He said the amounts used are not dangerous, though people should be aware of the potential hazard. The National Fire Protection Association (www.nfpa.org) enforces stringent safety regulations for large fireworks displays. Spectators must be kept at least 840 feet from the launch area (that's based on the height and burst diameter of the largest shells). Shells may not be launched if winds are stronger than 20 miles per hour, because they could be blown off course. Nevertheless, many accidents occur with unregulated, informal neighborhood displays, when spectators attracted to the activities stand dangerously close to the launch area.
  
  
• A caller asked whether the amount of heat released by the combustion of fossil fuels is a significant factor in contributing to global warming. Professor Shakhashiri said the amount of heat produced is relatively insignificant compared to the greenhouse effect of the carbon dioxide gas produced by combustion, which traps solar heat after it hits the Earth.
  
  
• A caller identifying himself as a member of Sustain Jefferson, an environmental group in Jefferson County Wisconsin, asked about the use of a stove to produce gases from solid fuels, specifically hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases, which are then burned in an internal combustion engine. Professor Shakhashiri first warned the caller and the audience that carbon monoxide is highly poisonous. The production of syngas–synthetic gasses–has been used for a long time as an industrial process, and Professor Shakhashiri has handout on the subject prepared for his chemistry classes. Here is a link with useful information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas.
  
  
• Another caller noted that many fireworks displays take place over water, providing an additional safety measure, but wondered if the chemicals fall into the water and pollute it. Professor Shakhashiri said the salts that fall into the water are substances like potassium chloride and sodium chloride (table salt) and are produced in relatively small amounts. The Rhythm and Booms display is over the North side of Lake Mendota in Madison, and Professor Shakhashiri said it’s doubtful if any increase in the amount of salts could be detected after the fireworks display, He noted that the use of salt on roads in winter in Madison and surrounding areas results in far more salt entering the lake than the fireworks could contribute.
  
  
• Professor Shakhashiri added another note caution. Many animals are very frightened by the noise of fireworks and he urged people to leave their pets at home when they go to fireworks. Larry added that friends of his took their dog to a fireworks display and, even though they were far from the display, the dog ran off.
  
  
• A caller asked about the pollution created by warfare in Iraq, both the explosions of weapons and the pollution caused by aircraft. Professor Shakhashiri said there’s no doubt that weapons explosions contribute to air pollution on a much larger scale than fireworks, which are relatively limited in scope. Other factors such as air temperature and wind also have an effect on the amount of pollution, but Professor Shakhashiri said nations should think about the proper use of science and technology.
  
  
• Another caller said that in a burst of fireworks, all of the streamers seem to be coming toward him, even though the burst is three dimensional. He asked if this is an optical illusion. Professor Shakhashiri said he and colleagues are now working on another volume of chemical experiments focusing on the properties of light, and human perceptions of light, which are often different from the light itself. When an aerial firework explodes, its component stars fly off in all directions. However, when viewed from a distance, these aerial fireworks seem flat, as though they were displayed on a screen. We do not easily perceive that some parts are coming toward us, while others are moving away. We have a hard time seeing this, because we don't perceive the normal clues that tell us the direction in which something is moving. Normally, when an object moves toward us, it appears to grow larger, and when it moves away, it appears to grow smaller. However, the stars in fireworks are so bright against a dark background, that we can't get an accurate impression of what size they are; their intensity saturates our retinas. We can't tell if they are getting larger or smaller, so we judge them not to be moving either away from us or toward us. Therefore, they look flat. If, however, we could see them from directly below, we would observe that the stars move in all directions away from the central explosion.
  
  
• When watching fireworks, we see them much sooner than we hear them. That happens because light travels about a million times as fast as sound. The speed of light is 300,000,000 meters per second, but the speed of sound is only about 340 meters per second. If you are watching fireworks that are about a kilometer (1000 meters) away, the light takes only 3 millionths of a second to reach you. The sound takes about 3 seconds. You can tell how many kilometers away fireworks are exploding by starting to count seconds as soon as you see an explosion. Stop counting when you hear the explosion and divide the count by 3. This gives the distance away in kilometers.
  
  
• Another caller, identifying himself as an amateur with a licence to make fireworks, said fireworks makers rarely use sodium chloride because it’s hygroscopic, readily absorbing moisture from the air, and fireworks with sodium chloride can’t be stored for any length of time. He also noted that some of the sparkling effects of fireworks come from charcoal produced by the explosions. The chief source of yellow color in fireworks is sodium and Professor Shakashiri wondered how the fireworks makers can created a yellow color without sodium. The caller said some use other substances like ultramarine and shellac, but that they are expensive and some makers avoid yellow. Professor Shakhashiri noted that the web site has a table listing the colors produced by different substances http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/fireworks/fireworks.htm.
  
  
• Another caller asked whether burning a pound of gasoline would produce more than a pound of carbon dioxide, since CO2 is produced by adding oxygen from the atmosphere to the carbon in the fuel. He reasoned that oxygen is heavier than the hydrogen it would replace. Professor Shakhashiri said it would not. The response on the radio was wrong. In fact, the weight of carbon dioxide would exceed the weight of the hydrocarbon burned. If the gasoline were entirely octane, for example, with eight carbon atoms, it would produce eight molecules of CO2 when burned completely. This would create a weight of carbon dioxide three times the weight of octane burned. The caller was correct!
  
  
• Finally, Professor Shakhashiri noted that people who experiment with fireworks should know exactly what they are doing before proceeding with any manufacture or use of explosives.
  

The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers

• Larry began by noting the 25th anniversary of the report by a blue ribbon U.S. government panel, "A Nation at Risk" (click here or here for more information). The report, released on April 25, 1983, was highly controversial and called attention to many shortcomings of the U.S. education system. Professor Shakhashiri said the nation is still at risk. He called the report a clarion call by the Secretary of Education pointing out important education issues. He said the report resulted in a lot more serious attention paid to education, in particular science and math education, and greater vigilance toward course offerings and how knowledge is communicated to students. Professor Shakhashiri said the report should have been called "People at Risk", since there is a very big gap between those who are science literate and those who are not, an issue that goes far beyond national geographic boundaries. Professor Shakhashiri added that, despite its flaws, the U.S. has the best education system in the world because it is decentralized. There are approximately 16,000 school districts and 3500 colleges and universities in the U.S., and each can do its own thing. While national and state educational standards have been drawn up, each entity can still experiment and tailor its offerings to suit local conditions. Professor Shakhashiri said there's a lot of room for improvement in the U.S. education system. For example, he said we don't support teachers as well as we should, and anniversaries are a time for reflection, to consider what we must and ought to do in the future.
   


• A caller said it's time to review how science is used, specifically mentioning pesticides and plastics as problematic chemicals. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that we must all be responsible for how chemicals are used and their effect on health and the environment. Science literacy is not just about advancing knowledge of science and technology, but also examining how we use it, he said, and we should all be aware of our role as custodians of the environment.
   


• A caller said "intelligent design" as an alternative to the theory of evolution is not science. The caller said a scientific theory is testable and yields new information, while "intelligent design" is a literature search looking for flaws in evolution. He said "intelligent design" is not testable by observation or experiment, is not correctable, yields no new information and does not belong in the science classroom. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that "intelligent design" is not science as portrayed in a just released movie and he also noted that the New York Times for the day of the broadcast, April 29, carried an interview with Professor Francisco Ayala, a former priest who is a professor of evolutionary science and philosophy and who has written extensively about evolution and its enemies. For more information about evolution and creationism click on the icon on the upper right of our home page scifun.org. Professor Shakhashiri said we should be respectful of people's rights to have their own beliefs without necessarily agreeing with them. He said we should always be vigilant about what people pass off as science.
   


• A caller asked about experiments to turn coal into gasoline. Actually, a process for making liquid fuel from coal is not experimental-it's been known for decades. But, it's an expensive, energy-intensive process that produces pollution and does nothing to reduce greenhouse gasses. Coal, gasoline and other fossil fuels are hydrocarbons, containing both carbon and hydrogen. Burning any carbon-containing fuel creates carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas contributing to global warming.
   


• A caller said students, and future teachers, don't get as much science training as they should, and recommended other programs such as those offered in every county by University of Wisconsin-Extension and 4H. He said a program in Sauk County, for example, the Youth Environmental Project, offers hands-on field work. Professor Shakhashiri said such programs are great, but should not be a substitute for quality math and science in school. Professor Shakhashiri is concerned about the elimination of lab work by many schools in many sciences, primarily to save money. He said sciences are experimental fields and students need hands-on, minds-on training. Science is all around us, he said, and how we learn about it effects our quality of life.
   


• Another caller asked what is a greenhouse gas, what is global warming and why is it bad? Professor Shakhashiri said the greenhouse effect is what we see in a car parked in the sun. It gets much hotter in the car than the air outside, because the car traps heat, just like a greenhouse and certain chemicals in the atmosphere. The chief greenhouse gasses are carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide and water vapor, which trap heat which would otherwise be radiated away from the Earth. Carbon dioxide made by burning fossil fuels (hydrocarbons) is contributing to global warming. The consequences include rising sea levels, more intense storms and changes in ecosystems as plants and animals deal with new environments. For more information click here.
   


• The next caller said some of his friends insist that global warming is a hoax, claiming that some scientists are on one side of the debate and some on the other. Professor Shakhashiri said while there are some sceptics, and that's OK, the vast majority of scientists say that global warming is under way and that human activity is causing it. He said there's no doubt that global warming is real and that nearly everything we do effects the environment. For example, the internet is responsible for three to three and a half per cent of electricity use in the U.S. In answer to another caller, Professor Shakhashiri said the internet is widely used and requires energy. He added that there's no way to un-invent the internet, and that all advances come with a cost. Larry suggested that the internet might have a net effect of reducing energy consumption by reducing travel.
   


• Larry asked about the controversy over the chemical bisphenol A, which is widely used in the manufacture of plastics. Findings that the chemical can leach out of the plastic and be ingested by people, with adverse effects, has caused Canada to ban the substance and in the U.S., the EPA is investigating it. Of special concern if the use of bisphenol A in baby bottles, but it is also used in most water bottles. Professor Shakhashiri said the public should not be totally alarmed-he urged letting regulatory agencies investigate. He also commended the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel for a series of reports on bisphenol A, and added that if it is truly harmful, it should be removed from the market. For trade web site on bisphenol A click here.
   


• A caller said American students get too much time off and that school should continue through the summer, adding that the European system is better. Professor Shakhashiri repeated his opinion that the U.S. education system is superior to any other because of freedom of choice. The current 180 day school year has its roots in the agrarian society of the 19th century when children were needed in summer to do farm work. Professor Shakhashiri said that all citizens should take responsibility in exercising our freedom of choice and consider alternatives. There are other questions such as, what would be done with the additional school days? He said we should examine why the UW-Madison has two 16 week semesters plus a shorter summer school, while some other schools have a system with three semesters or four quarters.

The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Jim Packard, substituting for Larry, and from callers

• Jim asked about the first day of Spring (even though Madison was about to get more snow, on top of an already record-setting snowfall for the season). Professor Shakhashiri said people look forward to more daylight. The vernal equinox means equal amounts of daylight and darkness. But he said there are many myths concerning the equinox. One is that on the equinox, you can make an egg stand on end. Professor Shakhashiri brought some eggs and he and Jim tried to stand them on end. They couldn’t. Professor Shakhashiri urged listeners to do their own experiments to see if they make an egg stand on end. He said it is a myth that it can be done only on the vernal equinox. Another myth, he said, is that a raw egg can be spun on its side. A good way to tell the difference between a raw egg and a hard boiled egg is to spin them. The hard boiled egg spins well, while the fluid in a raw egg dampens its spin. Professor Shakhashiri and Jim spun eggs, determined whether they were raw or hard boiled, then checked their results by cracking them open.
  
  Professor Shakhashiri said everyone harbors misconceptions. Twenty years ago a survey conducted at graduation ceremonies for Harvard University found that a large majority of the graduates, faculty and family members could not explain the reason for the four seasons. Some thought the Earth moves closer to the sun in the summer. Professor Shakhashiri said more recent surveys show improvement in this aspect of science literacy, but there is still a long way to go. He said the reason for the seasons is the tilt of the Earth’s axis–in the Southern hemisphere, March 20 marked the arrival of Fall. He added that another good question is what caused the tilt of the Earth’s axis.
  
  A caller insisted that he had balanced an egg on end many times on the first day of Spring, but added that it has to be done at noon, which he said would be 1PM Central Daylight Saving Time, and said it’s not a myth. But Spring officially began at 12:50 am, and Jim asked why the egg would balance only at noon. The caller insisted that it does. Professor Shakhashiri urged everyone to try it.
  
  Another caller said egg balancing works only at the equator, and that she had seen it done on the equator on the first day of Spring and had photos to prove it. Professor Shakhashiri said the Internet is full of such pictures, and asked what would be a plausible explanation for any egg balancing. He urged listeners to try it and report their results on this web site.
  
  Another caller reported trying to balance eggs and said it works only at the Spring equinox, not at the Fall equinox. Professor Shakhashiri said this is why he brought it up, so people would do the experiment and come up with their own explanations. He called it a recreational activity that makes people think about their own beliefs and think about different explanations. The shell on most bird eggs is not completely smooth; it has small bumps and lumps. When these rough spots are in just the right place, they can help to stabilize the egg when it is placed on its end. So, with care, it is possible to stand an egg on its end. The myth is that it can only be done on the vernal equinox.
   
• Another caller asked what the effect will be on industry of oil at $100 a barrel or more. Professor Shakhashiri said it will have a very large effect, not only on the cost of fuel but because most plastics are made from petroleum feed stock, so it will effect the entire economy. The cost of many types of plastic will go up, and he predicted that industry would look to coal, which the U.S. has in abundance, as an alternative feed stock. But he pointed out that coal mining is dangerous and environmentally destructive. High oil prices are also making coal gassification for fuel more attractive. In a process that’s been known for decades, coal is heated to produce carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas, a product known as syngas, which can then be converted to products like ammonia (used for fertilizer) and methanol (for motor fuel). Professor Shakhashiri noted that China is building a new coal-fired electric power plant every week and urged all countries to exercise good judgment by considering the consequences of actions.
   
• A caller asked how to get information about sustainable crops for biofuels. Jim said that Wisconsin Public Radio had a program on that subject. On that program, Jim Packard talks with two researchers about the move to a bioeconomy. They are UW-Madison Professor of Bacteriology Tim Donohue, and Michigan State University Professor of Crop and Soil Sciences Phil Robertson. Both are involved with the Great Lkaes Bioenergy Research Center. Click here to listen to that program.
   
• Another caller asked whether snow evaporates more from the top or whether it melts more from the bottom. Professor Shakhashiri noted that snow piles shrink even when the air temperature does not rise above freezing (as long as no new snow is added). Part of the answer is sublimation. Water ice not only melts, it also undergoes a process scientists call sublimation, when some of it changes directly from solid to gas without going through the liquid phase. Frozen carbon dioxide sublimates, going directly from solid to gas, which is why it is often called “dry ice”–no liquid is formed. Other examples of sublimation are air fresheners, which contain solids that sublimate, and frost free refrigerators, which circulate air to sublimate ice buildup.
   
• A caller asked why the rotation of the moon is identical to its orbit around the Earth, so that the same side of the moon always faces the Earth. An explanation is given here on the Web.
   
• A caller reported an unexplained increase in the temperature of cooking oil when piece of fish, at room temperature, is added. The caller said a temperature probe would show a temperature of 250 degrees, and upon adding the fish, the temperature would shoot up to 350. The caller reported stirring the oil before adding the fish. This turns out to be a common occurrence as the oil in the pan is not uniformly heated. The oil is viscous, and the temperature can vary quite a lot from one spot to another. A quick stir is not enough to even out the temperature. However, when damp fish is dropped into the oil, the water on the fish vaporizes and bubbles up, and this bubbling effectively stirs the oil. This stirring mixes the hotter oil with the cooler oil, and the thermometer registers a temperature change.
   


• Another caller wondered whether, in a turning shaft of solid metal, there would be something at dead center of that shaft that was not turning. The caller described rotation by referring to one side of the shaft (as viewed from the end) as going up and one side going down. Another caller explained that the entire shaft was rotating in the same direction, and that a point on its surface would be going in a circle, not up or down, and that the molecules at the center would also be spinning in the same direction. In an e-mail message sent after the show Dr. Margaret C. Turnbul explained: “The atoms exactly at the middle of the shaft are still rotating, but they are ‘stationary’ in that they are not traveling around the axis of rotation like the rest of the material further out from the center. The center of the shaft is spinning in place while the rest of the shaft is circumscribing circles around that center. The same is true at the north pole of the earth, which (ignoring the earth's revolution around the sun) is spinning, but not translating.”

The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers

• Larry began by asking Professor Shakhashiri if there should be a debate between the presidential candidates on the subject of science and technology. Several organizations, including the National Academy of Science and SCIENCE Magazine have called for such a debate, which would be the first of its kind. Professor Shakhashiri said such a debate would be a good idea because science and technology are the engines that drive the economy and have serious impacts on all aspects of society. He emphasized that it would not be a debate on the content of science, testing the candidates’ knowledge, but on the application and use of science and technology. Professor Shakhashiri said a debate would call attention to the significance of science in our daily lives on many themes including health care, energy, the environment, homeland security, education and international competitiveness. He urged candidates to tell voters where they stand and where they might take us, bringing the discussion to a wider audience. He asked listeners for their ideas on what topics should be discussed.
  
  Professor Shakhashiri mentioned an example of a question that might be asked: Do you think presidential appointees should be subject to a litmus test on issues like embryonic stem cell research, a carbon tax, mining safety, FDA regulations, and regulation of genetically modified foods?
  
  The first caller said candidates should be asked for their views on monopolies on technology such as computer operating systems and digital broadcasting, where a few companies control access. Professor Shakhashiri said that’s an important issue–the federal role in technology transfer, bringing new developments to market and who controls them--something all elected officials should be thinking about.
  
  Another caller said a big problem is what the media does with the candidates’ answers and complained that the answers might be complicated and legalistic. Professor Shakhashiri said any debate must be understood by all of us and said he’s been disappointed by many statements by public officials which don’t show any respect for the intelligence of the American public. "Some political statements show they think we’re dumb," he complained. The answers should be in plain talk, he said, and if they don’t know the answer, they should say so. "That’s what we do in science," he continued, "we have more questions than answers."
   
• A caller asked if there are processes to take carbon out of the atmosphere and sell it and whether there’s research on sequestration of carbon from burning fossil fuels (carbon dioxide is the main greenhouse gas contributing to global warming). An interesting approach was just reported in the New York Times.
  
  Professor Shakhashiri said there’s a lot of research going on concerning removing carbon from smokestack emissions but that economics are the problem, not only the cost in money but the amount of energy required to remove the carbon. Carbon and oxygen are bonded very strongly in CO₂ and it takes a lot of energy to break the bond. There are ways to do it, but the question is whether it can be economically feasible. Another question is what to do with the carbon if it’s removed, he continued. If it’s burned again, that would create more CO₂. Just because something can be done, Professor Shakhashiri continued, doesn’t mean it’s wise to do it because there can be many considerations to take into account.
   
• Another caller asked about the use of platinum as a catalyst to remove carbon from emissions, and also asked how long it will take before hydrogen fuel cells replace fossil fuels. Professor Shakhashiri said many metals can be used as catalysts and there’s a lot of research going on toward sequestration of carbon from emissions. Concerning hydrogen fuel cells, Professor Shakhashiri said he has no crystal ball concerning the timeline. There’s a lot of research going on to make the hydrogen economy feasible, but patience and persistence are needed in supporting the research, see http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/. Once question is economic viability and, he added, there’s also a safety issue. Hydrogen is explosive.
   
• Larry asked about a new report on science and engineering indicators from the National Science Board, the overseer of the National Science Foundation. The board is required by law to make a report every two years to the President and Congress on the status of science and technology. Among other things, the board reports on the effect of federal support for scientific research and its impact on the economy, globalization and international affairs.
  
  Professor Shakhashiri said it’s a useful document, and he always looks at the chapter on public attitudes and understanding of science and technology. That report is based on extensive surveys. For example, surveys show that more Americans say television is their greatest source of science and technology information, leading all other sources, and that the internet is now the second leading source. Professor Shakhashiri said when he first appeared on Larry’s show 20 years ago, there was no internet, and he warned that while the internet has a lot of information, not all of it is valuable. He said it’s intriguing and challenging to think about what might be sources of information 20 years from now.
  
  The surveys show that the public’s respect for scientists is very high, but that public knowledge of science has not changed much over the years, and Professor Shakhashiri says it could be a lot better. For example, only one in ten Americans consider themselves very familiar with biotechnology. 60 per cent of those surveyed believe they have not eaten genetically modified foods, but in reality almost all processed foods contain some genetically modified material.
   
• Another caller asked the classic question, "Paper or plastic?", and wondered if plastics which are claimed to be biodegradable really are. Professor Shakhashiri said there are many kinds of plastic on the market, most of them made from petroleum, and that consumers should read labels carefully and be clear about what they want to do. Consumers should think about the disposal of many products, he said, asking whether products really get recycled and what’s the cost of recycling. The caller specifically asked about polypropylene, and Professor Shakhashiri said he doesn’t think that it’s biodegradable.
   
• Another caller asked whether plastic bottles can be dangerous when chemicals leach from them into the liquid they contain. Professor Shakhashiri again noted that there are many types of plastic and that they contain a whole slew of chemicals. He commended the Milwaukee Journal and other publications for extensive coverage of the issue. He noted that there might be a special problem with baby bottles as they may contain bisphenol A and are reused repeatedly. He said some bottles are made overseas and should be subject to the same controls as those made in the U.S. Professor Shakhashiri said harder plastics, like polycarbonate and HDPE (high density polyethylene), have very little leaching. Larry said he is planning a future show with a leading researcher on this subject.
   
• A caller asked about the use of technology developed by research paid for by public funds, noting that the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF) is suing Intel over alleged patent violations. The caller said that might have a chilling effect on putting technology to use, while also saying that private companies shouldn’t be able to simply take technology for nothing. Professor Shakhashiri said that when a University researcher comes up with a new invention, any money earned is shared by WARF, which in turn uses the money to fund many research projects. He noted that patent holders have to be careful about infringements. It’s part of the legal system, and if they don’t defend their patents, they lose them. In a broader sense, Professor Shakhashiri said discoveries made with public money should be made public through open access, rather than being held as proprietary information or published only in journals which the public must pay to access. He noted that the National Institutes of Health requires, by law, that grantees make their findings available on the web after a short period of time. Professor Shakhashiri said he’s for open access (with the exception of classified research) and that this would be a good question for the presidential debate.
   
• Another caller, who identified himself as a former employee of the Jet Propulsion Lab, which launches unmanned spacecraft, said unmanned spacecraft have collected a lot more useful data than manned spacecraft and at far less cost. He said he’s not against manned expeditions, but complained that the space shuttle gets all the glory while collecting a lot less information. Professor Shakhashiri said this is another good question for a presidential debate. President Bush has promised a manned expedition to Mars in the future, but Professor Shakhashiri said that would be very costly. He said, "I’m not running, but I favor unmanned exploration, and we need an open discussion of the issue."

The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers

• Professor Shakhashiri began by talking about two books he got for Christmas, Musicophilia, by neurologist Oliver Sacks and The Omnivor's Dilemma by Michael Pollan. Professor Shakhashiri said as we begin a new year it's important for all of us to think about the role of science and technology in our daily lives and to take responsibility for our actions. With oil now at $100 per barrel, he urged listeners to think about three chemicals, all greenhouse gases: natural gas (which is mostly methane, a greenhouse gas), carbon dioxide and water vapor, the most dominant greenhouse gas. Even the huge supplies of water in the Great Lakes are at risk and Professor Shakhashiri said water supplies worldwide are in danger.
   
• A caller asked how using resources contributes to global warming and whether alternatives should be considered. Professor Shakhashiri said while fossil fuels are here to stay and can't be entirely replaced in the short term, alternatives are needed that are economically viable and good for the environment. Every time we burn a fuel containing carbon, that produces carbon dioxide which acts as a greenhouse, trapping the sun's heat in the atmosphere. The rate of increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is so high that we should be alarmed and concerned about our fossil fuel use, he said.
   
• A caller identifying herself as a kindergarten teacher said math and science are not taught well enough in lower grades. Professor Shakhashiri advised anyone concerned with the quality of math and science teaching to consult their state standards on teaching math and science and then communicate to schools their concerns about implementation of the standards. While the standards are not perfect, he said they provide a starting point for a discussion. The most important element in teaching, Professor Shakhashiri said, is qualified teachers who can nurture young minds with a healthy approach to learning.
   
• Larry noted that Exxon-Mobil has committed $125 million to improve science and education teaching through the national "U Teach" program. The program, to recruit and train teachers, was started ten years ago at the University of Texas and Exxon-Mobil has committed to expanding it nationally. Professor Shakhashiri said he's not an apologist for industry, but such actions can demonstrate the utility of support for education from industry, and in the past such efforts have led to more state and federal government support for education. He noted that the program is not available in the midwest as yet, but hopes the region will become eligible. For more information about "U Teach" click here.
   
• A caller asked what is the difference between a theory and what we know as fact. Professor Shakhashiri said we make observations, collect and validate them, and then propose a theory to explain them. A theory is valid until disproven. Then a new or modified theory is needed, and this is how progress is made. In science, a theory is not just any idea, but is based on observation and must be disprovable.
   
• Another caller asked whether there's a shortage is scientists and, if so, why are there so many post-doctoral students who can't find jobs? Professor Shakhashiri said those who assert that there's a shortage usually have a number in mind for how many scientists are needed, and added that he has no such number. Many reports say the U.S. is falling behind and doesn't have enough native-born citizens going into math and science, and there are government programs to remedy the situation. Professor Shakhashiri said the unemployed post-docs may be a placement issue and that it's wrong to encourage study in an area that doesn't lead to good jobs. However, he also said that better educated people have a better chance to get good jobs not only in the field they are trained for but in other fields as well. Professor Shakhashiri added that the public has a shortage of understanding of science and that scientists should not only advance knowledge but explain science to the public.
   
• Another caller asked about the difference between theory and fact and also asked about developments concerning ethanol. Professor Shakhashiri said a fact would be that table salt, sodium chloride, is a white solid that's soluble in water and, when in solution, conducts electrical current. The theory to explain the conductivity says that the solution of sodium chloride has ions, charged particles, which conduct electricity. Concerning ethanol, Professor Shakhashiri said it can be an alternate source of energy, but it contains carbon, and burning it contributes to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and to global warming. Larry noted that growing plants to make ethanol takes carbon dioxide out to the atmosphere, making it carbon-neutral. Professor Shakhashiri said photosynthesis converts carbon dioxide and water into sugars and oxygen, but people have cut down forests and at the some increased burning fossil fuels so there is a net increase in the amount of carbon dioxide.
   
• A caller asked about a recent article in the Smithsonian Magazine discussing serious environmental pollution issues for the Ganges River which is sacred to Hindus. Professor Shakhashiri said that education is key to progress and that people should understand and respect cultural and religious beliefs to successfully deal with such issues.
   
• Another caller asked about the definition of a theory, saying that he calls the theory of evolution a principle, and wondering how it could become a law. Professor Shakhashiri said that while labels can be important, we shouldn't get hung up on them. The goal should be to understand the theory and how it got put together. Evolution, for example, is based on many observations from many branches of science. Professor Shakhashiri added that in all discussions where a theory seems to conflict with a religious belief, respect for the other person is often missing. For information about the latest publication from the National Academy of Sciences on science, evolution, and creationism click here.
   
• A caller asked about a book called Endgame, in which the author says cities can never be sustainable and must import resources. Professor Shakhashiri said he doesn't agree that there's no such thing as sustainable development, but he's willing to look at the book. He added that we can do things in a more environmentally friendly way.

• Larry noted that Professor Shakhashiri's 38th annual Christmas Lecture is coming up. All the free tickets have been distributed, but "Once Upon a Christmas Cheery in the Lab of Shakhashiri" the program will be telecast on Wisconsin Public Television on the following dates: Friday, December 21 4:30 p.m., Friday, Dec 21 4:30 pm, Sunday, Dec 23 8:00 am, Monday, Dec 24 12:30 pm, Tuesday, Dec 25 12:00 noon, Friday, Dec 28 1:00 pm and Monday, Dec 31 9:00 am. For date and time of telecast elsewhere around the country check local PBS and cable stations listings. The Christmas Lecture is in the tradition of the great British scientist Michael Faraday, who gave very popular Christmas lectures in the early 1800s. Faraday's run lasted 19 years, which Professor Shakhashiri is about to double.
   
• Larry asked about a conference at Oregon State University, which Professor Shakhashiri attended, on the role of the scientist as educator and public citizen. Professor Shakhashiri said scientists have a duty to communicate with the public at large as well as with each other to share not only their results but their values. Science and technology play an ever-increasing role in society, which makes science literacy critical, he said, and scientists must take a more active role
   
• Professor Shakhashiri noted that Oregon State was the alma mater of Linus Pauling, the only person to receive two unshared Nobel Prizes in two different areas. Pauling received the Chemistry Prize in 1954 "for his research into the nature of the chemical bond and its application to the elucidation of the structure of complex substances", and in 1962 the Peace Prize for his efforts to end atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons.
   
• Professor Shakhashiri called on scientists to renew their commitment to communicate the excitement of science, the potential benefits of new discoveries and the potential harm. He noted that Nobel Laureate James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, resigned recently as head of the Cold Spring Harbor Lab he has directed since 1968 after Watson made what Professor Shakhashiri called "irresponsible comments" about race. Watson later apologized, but Professor Shakhashiri said scientists have an awesome responsibility to communicate with the public at large, to talk about the bad as well as the good and not ignore incidents like Watson's comments.
   
• A caller complained that news reports often use attributions like "officials say" or "studies show" without citing the sources. Professor Shakhashiri agreed, and said he hoped journalists were listening. He said studies can contradict each other, and science makes progress through skepticism, so there's a need to know the sources. He noted that the University of Wisconsin-Madison includes the name and contact numbers of researchers when it issues news releases about research.
   
• A caller asked about the flight of frisbees. Identifying himself as a disc golfer, the caller wanted to know if frisbees fly better in cold or warm weather. Larry said that, as a golfer, he's sure that golf balls don't go as far in cold weather. Professor Shakhashiri said several factors could be at work.
   
• Another caller noted that cold air is denser than warm air. That would support Larry's contention-denser air would furnish more resistance to a golf ball. Professor Shakhashiri urged callers and listeners to conduct experiments to find the answer.
   
• Another caller, who identified himself as a flight instructor, noted that aircraft get more lift from denser cold air than from warm air. A frisbee gets lift just like an airplane wing, but the denser air also causes more drag.
   
• Another caller offered an analogy: If you imagine an ever-thickening atmosphere, at some point it would become thick enough to stop the frisbee completely. At the other extreme, if the atmosphere were eliminated, the frisbee would not fly at all and would behave like any other object thrown in a vacuum. The caller suggested there's a sweet spot somewhere in between where the frisbee flies best.
   
• A caller asked about the plans to build a super particle collider in Texas, asking if it was ever built. The superconducting super collider, intended to study atomic particles and the composition of matter, was not built. In the early 1990s, Congress decided that the cost was too great and refused to fund it. However, another large super collider has just been completed in Switzerland by the international atomic agency CERN. Another caller wondered about the method used by atomic colliders. He said it sounded like smashing two watches together and examining the pieces that fly off to determine how a watch works. But there's no simple tool to take an atomic nucleus apart. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to break up a nucleus, which is why the giant colliders accelerate particles to extreme speeds before colliding them. Professor Shakhashiri said great discoveries of atomic structure have been made by smashing nuclei.
   
• A caller asked about research at the University of Toronto by Professor Ted Sergeant using nanotechnology to enhance the efficiency of photo voltaic cells. The caller said the professor's book is "Dance of the Molecules". Professor Shakhashiri said there are thousands of researchers worldwide looking into both nano technology and solar power. An excellent web site to consult is http://www.mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/.
   
• A caller asked by wind turbine blades are so thin. He noted that the sails on a boat are as large as possible to catch more wind, and wondered why wind turbine blades are not thicker. Professor Shakhashiri said the answer may be related to the speed of the rotation and the weight of the material. Bigger blades would require more wind to turn, while thinner ones could take advantage of lighter winds. For information about wind power please visit http://www.science.org.au/nova/037/037key.htm.
   
• Larry noted that two UW-Madison faculty were recently honored at the White House as recipients of Presidential Early Career Awards for Scientists and Engineers (PECASE). Ahna Skop, Assistant Professor of Genetics and Medical Genetics, College of Agriculture and Life Sciences and School of Medicine and Public Health, was nominated by the National Science Foundation for her research on molecular mechanisms involved in cell division. Sterling Johnson, Associate Professor of Medicine, School of Medicine and Public Health, and Middleton Veteran's Administration Hospital, was nominated by the Veteran's Department for his research on neural disorders related to aging and brain damage. Professor Shakhashiri said the awards are a great honor-only 58 were bestowed nationally this year. The awards are intended to stimulate innovation, increase awareness of careers in science, and connect basic research to real life. Each recipient receives up to five years of research support from the nominating agency.
   
• A caller asked about static electricity, saying she could not get into or out of her car without getting a shock. She also said her mechanic reported there was nothing wrong with the car. Larry said he has the same problem when air is dry during the heating season, and that he quickly touches the car without letting a spark to jump from car to finger. Another caller said he uses his key. He said touching the key to a metal part of the car draws the static spark, but that the holder of the key can't feel it (though he said you can see the spark at night).
   
• A caller asked whether the dangers of nanotechnology are real or just fodder for science fiction. Professor Shakhashiri said every new development must be carefully scrutinized for possible adverse consequences. He said the public should not be scared, but should insist on responsible investigation of any potential danger. As with all technology, he said the result depends on what we do with it. Many researchers involved in the area are concerned about potential danger, and Professor Shakhashiri said it's not science fiction but a reasonable concern.

The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers.

• Larry began by calling attention to a special anniversary. September 17th was the 50th anniversary of Professor Shakhashiri's arrival in the United States, along with his family, from his native Lebanon (he became a citizen in 1974). Professor Shakhashiri said they have been 50 wonderful years for the entire family (his parents are deceased but he has two sisters and their families as well as his own family in the U.S.). Professor Shakhashiri said it's a privilege to be a US citizen, something many Americans take for granted. Calling the United States "the most advanced society in the history of the world", Professor Shakhashiri said that, nevertheless, it's not perfect, and everyone has a responsibility to strive to improve our society.
   
• Professor Shakhashiri's father was a medical doctor specializing in public health. He came to the U.S. on a one-year sabbatical to the Harvard School of Health, ended up extending his stay every year, and finally joined the National Institutes for Health. Professor Shakhashiri said the family visited Madison in 1958 to see his father's sister, who was a graduate student at UW-Madison. He had no inkling that 12 years later he would join the faculty of what he calls "one of the greatest institutions in the world."
   
• Professor Shakhashiri said the future is up to us, depending on what we do with advances in science and technology. He invited callers to offer their opinions on the most important scientific and technological changes in the last 50 years. Professor Shakhashiri said one of the biggest changes has been in space exploration. Shortly after his arrival in the U.S., the Soviet Union launched Sputnik on Oct. 4, 1957 which was a shock to the United States which was seen by some as a military threat. The result was a huge influx of support for science and math education as well as a huge commitment to the space program.
   
• A caller asked about news that a UW-Madison laboratory doing research on the Ebola virus has been sanctioned by the federal government over safety regulations. The UW says the lab never assembled a living Ebola virus and that there has been no danger to the public.
   
• A caller said he was a student at the UW-Madison in the early 1970s and had a roommate who took Professor Shakhashiri's introductory chemistry course and throughly enjoyed it. The caller asked about the whereabouts of two of his own favorite chemistry professors. Professor Shakhashiri said Professor Alex Koch is retired and living in Colorado and Professor John Walters left the UW to teach at St. Olaf College and has since retired. Professor Shakhashiri said it was delightful to get a call asking about former teachers, acknowledging their service. He urged alumni to get a copy of The Badger Chemist, an annual publication of chem department news available to all chemistry graduates (the next edition will be out soon). Grads can get a copy by contacting the chemistry department or contacting Professor Shakhashiri through this web site. Archived copies are at: http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/UW/subcollections/BadgerChemistAbout.shtmlhttp://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/UW/subcollections/BadgerChemistAbout.shtml
   
• Professor Shakhashiri said contact with students and parents is precious. He told of a recent trip to Door County, Wisconsin, to participate in the WaterFest program at Crossroads at Big Oak. A parent of a former student of Professor Shakhashiri's initiated the invitation. Professor Shakhashiri gave several lectures and visited a middle school, and said such connections are very important and contribute to a sense of community. Professor Shakhashiri said he was very pleased to meet at WaterFest the father of a current student in his first-year chemistry course.
   
• A caller said science and religion seem to conflict, but that truth should be a part of religion and the two shouldn't conflict. Professor Shakhashiri said science and religion are different domains of human endeavor and can be made to conflict, but that conflict is not inevitable. Professor Shakhahsiri tries to communicate the values of science to all audiences, including religious ones, and as long as the two sides maintain mutual respect, meaningful discussions are possible. In many cases, respect is missing, he says, and then the dialogue becomes a shouting match and is not productive. He said the public should realize the limitations of science, what it can't do as well as what it can do, and while two people may disagree, they can maintain mutual respect.
   
• A caller who identified himself as a newly retired chemistry teacher in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, said he relied on Professor Shakhashiri's Chemical Demonstrations: A Handbook for Teachers (a four volume set). The caller asked what advice Professor Shakhashiri would have for new chemistry teachers just starting out. Professor Shakhashiri said one of the most important qualifications is competence in the subject matter (whether the subject is chemistry or something else). He said the teacher should know more than what's in the textbook and have a broader understanding of the subject. In addition, he said a teacher should be committed to the profession of teaching and to helping students learn, finding ways to communicate effectively. He said science can't be learned overnight and that it's more than just memorization of facts. Finally, he said a teacher should convey the right attitude about science, which includes many elements such as observing safety procedures and the ability to correct mistakes while still positively reinforcing student learning. While he always says, "Science is fun", Professor Shakhashiri said what that really means is, "Learning is fun!"
   
• Another caller, following up on space travel as one of the biggest changes of the last 50 years, asked about news that Japan has sent a lunar orbiter. Professor Shakhashiri said space exploration is only one of many big changes in the last 50 years. Another is in the area of the environment. We have learned a lot more about pollution, the ozone hole and global warming. Other areas are advances in health care and issues related to education. Professor Shakhashiri said we must be responsible in dealing with change because the sovereignty of the planet is in question and the future will be based on what we do today.
   
• Another caller said the only reason he passed a college physics course was a teacher who made it interesting. He added that his daughter took Professor Shakhashiri's introductory chemistry course and reports that he was terrific. Professor Shakhashiri thanked the caller for his complement but added that, while teachers can inspire, the students must do the work and they deserve the credit. The caller said he has two daughters in college and wondered what security measures have been taken in the wake of the shooting last spring at Virginia Tech, specifically, if there are drills concerning what to do in case of an attack. Professor Shakhashiri said there have been no drills. Fire drills are routine (the chem department had one yesterday). Professor Shakhashiri said he has thought about what to do in case of at attack in his classes but hasn't shared his plans because he doesn't want to be alarmist. He said the possibility of drills is an important subject which he will raise with his colleagues. He also noted that the University administration has reviewed security measures with the campus police.
   
• A caller asked about the cost of medical care, and said the amount of taxpayer funded research is far greater than the amount of money provided by private sources, and that government sources pay at least 45 per cent of health care costs. Professor Shakhashiri said he is not familiar with those figures. Professor Shakhashiri said it takes a lot of research and testing to get a drug to market. Health care is a huge investment and he noted that it's a big issue in the upcoming presidential election as most polls show health care costs are the number one issue for voters, displacing taxes and crime, which have topped the list for decades.
   
• A caller said his own family has gained personally from stem cell research, and noted that the issue involves more than embryonic stem cells, the center of the controversy. The caller said stem cell research is one of the biggest developments of the last 50 years. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that the stem cell debate has been narrowly focused and needs a broader view of the ethical questions and benefits to society. The result of any new invention or discovery depends on what we do with it, he continued. "Once invented, you can't un-invent the gun", he said. "The result depends on what you do with it, and it's impossible to predict what the effect of a discovery will be." For example, early research on radar led to the development of the MRI, magnetic resonance imaging, which is now a mainstay of medicine. Those researchers could not have foreseen this use of their discoveries. For all discoveries and inventions Professor Shakhashiri said "It all comes down to responsibility."
   

The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners.

• Professor Shakhashiri began with a tribute to Don Herbert, television’s “Mr. Wizard,” who died recently at the age of 89. Mr. Wizard pioneered science on television in the 1950s, introducing millions of people to the wonders of science, including Professor Shakhashiri. After he immigrated to the U.S. in 1957, Professor Shakhashiri got his first impression of American television from Mr. Wizard. It was a live program, and Professor Shakhashiri said it was obvious that Mr. Wizard was a relaxed and confident performer, dedicated to his work, and that he was also learning from the experience. Professor Shakhashiri dedicated one of his books to Mr. Wizard, the fourth volume of Chemical demonstrations: A Handbook for Teachers. The dedication reads, “To Don Herbert, TV’s Mr. Wizard, who perfected the art of communicating science to children of all ages.” Professor Shakhashiri considered Don Herbert a good friend and mentor, and said he left a great legacy, including many people around the world who became scientists because of his influence. In 1998, Prof. Shakhashiri and Don Herbert both received the Presidential Science Initiative Award at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, Connecticut. Here is Don Herbert's obituary from Science magazine.
   
• A caller asked whether any recordings of Mr. Wizard’s programs are available. Yes, they can be found at the Mr. Wizard web site, www.mrwizardstudios.com. His family is keen on maintaining his legacy.
   
• Another caller remembered a specific experiment that Mr. Wizard performed, making carbon dioxide by mixing baking soda and vinegar in a beaker. He then put out a candle by pouring the CO₂ over it.
   
• Other callers also remembered Mr. Wizard. A caller recognized immediately by Professor Shakhashiri as emeritus chemistry professor Marv Lang from UW-Stevens Point, recalled seeing Don Herbert in 1994 at an awards luncheon for chemists, and was impressed by his ability to captivate an audience, even an audience of science professionals.
   
• Another caller said he grew up with Mr. Wizard, who was responsible for his career as an engineer. That caller remembered Mr. Wizard putting bottles of carbonated beverages in an ultrasonic cleaner, causing them to spout like geysers. The caller compared it to the currently popular experiment of putting Mentos in Coke (which also produces a geyser). That caller also remembered a program, Things of Science, in which children were sent a science kit every month, with materials and instructions for experiments. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s hard to get science kits today because of regulations and fears about selling chemicals. While some chemicals are dangerous, Professor Shakhashiri reminded listeners that everything is made of chemicals, and said the fear of chemicals borders on phobia. He noted that Wired magazine had a recent article bemoaning the lack of chemistry kits for children. While computer simulations of experiments are readily available, he said that’s not the same as doing it yourself. He also noted that many experiments described on the Internet involve explosions or other potentially dangerous activities. While the Internet can be an excellent source of information, Professor Shakhashiri warned that not all sites are equally good and urged listeners to use common sense in evaluating sites. He also said that Don Herbert was interested in learning, not just “gee whiz” demonstrations. Professor Shakhashiri uses some “gee whiz” demonstrations himself to capture attention, he said the emphasis is always on learning as the primary goal and safety as a main consideration.
   
• A caller asked about another science program, Science Fantastic, a national call-in radio program heard for three hours on Saturday night with host, Michio Kaku, a professor at City University of New York. Professor Shakhashiri said he hasn’t listened to it himself, but has heard and read about it, calling it a good effort to improve the understanding and appreciation of science. Professor Shakhashiri said that science programs in the media have a big effect–he told Larry that every appearance on Public Radio brings a lot of questions and encouragement, both via e mail and from people he meets. Professor Shakhashiri added that the gold standard for quality science on the radio is Science Friday with Ira Flatow, on National Public Radio Friday afternoons.
   
• A caller asked about capturing carbon to prevent the production of carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas that most scientists now consider the biggest cause of global warming. Some coal fired power plants already have scrubbers to remove sulfur dioxide, the chief cause of acid rain, and scrubbers could be used to also remove carbon dioxide. Chemical reactions could then break down the CO₂ and isolate the carbon. Professor Shakhashiri said the main impediment to implementing such technology is the cost.
   
• Another caller complained that many sports people don’t take seriously problems like chronic wasting disease in deer or the discovery of a deadly virus in fish in the Great Lakes, and that they lack knowledge about the problems. Professor Shakhashiri said ignorance is our worst enemy, which is why science literacy is so important. For example, parts of the Midwest have recently been under ozone alerts. Professor Shakhashiri said ozone is a poison, and the alerts mean that people should curtail outdoor activities, like mowing lawns, adding that running mowers just adds to the problem. Larry said that when he was on a fishing trip to a northern Wisconsin lake, local people told him the state Department of Natural Resources was netting muskies, taking them out of the lake to stock lakes in southern Wisconsin. Larry looked into the claim, and found that the DNR was netting fish in order to put transmitters on them, and that the DNR actually stocked the northern lake with additional fish every year. But when he told the local people what he had learned, they didn’t believe him. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s the responsibility of the agency to explain its actions better.
   
• A caller asked, “What’s the difference between a hypothesis and a theory?” Professor Shakhashiri said that’s a profound question because it’s very important to use language accurately. Professor Shakhashiri urged the caller to look in a dictionary, and said he would look up the words himself. While the words have meanings in everyday language–any idea or assertion can be called a theory–their meaning in science is more specific. From the American Heritage Dictionary:
  
  hypothesis: c. “A conjecture that accounts, within a theory or ideational framework, for a set of facts than can be used as a basis for further investigation.”
  
  theory: a. “Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances; especially, a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.”
   
• Finally, Larry asked about fireworks. With the Fourth of July coming up, the SCIENCE IS FUN web site features information about fireworks. Professor Shakhashiri urged people to enjoy watching fireworks, and also to remember what the celebration is about, Independence Day and the liberty that all Americans enjoy. “I don’t want to get choked up about this, but I am”, he said. “We live in the best country in the history of humankind, and we want to keep it that way.” For more on the Declaration of Independence please visit the National Archives web site.

The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners. Professor Shakhashiri spoke via telephone from the Chemical Heritage Foundation in Philadelphia.

• Larry began by congratulating Professor Shakhashiri on his receipt of the 2007 National Science Board Public Service Award. This prestigious award, with only one recipient each year, is made by the board which oversees the National Science Foundation. Recipients of the award are chosen for contributions in areas such as: increasing the public’s understanding of the scientific process and its communication; contributing to the development of broad science and engineering policy; promoting the engagement of scientists and engineers in public outreach; and fostering awareness of science and technology among broad segments of the population. Professor Shakhashiri said he’s humbled by the honor, which is a reflection on the great environment of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, which engages students, staff and faculty to excel.

• Commenting on the end of another academic year, Professor Shakhashiri congratulated all graduating students and thanked their parents and the rest of their families for their support. Professor Shakhashiri gave the commencement address last week at the University of South Carolina–Aiken. He said it was a thrill to see the graduating students about to embark on making their contributions to their communities. He said education is the key to success and bringing about change, and urged graduates to work hard to pay back their communities and society at large.
   
• Larry asked about the American Competitiveness Initiative proposed by the President at the urging of Congress to promote scientific education and research. The proposal is now working its way through Congress with bi-partisan support. Among other things, it would increase the budgets of the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy and the Department of Education. Though research and development investment in the United States remains the largest in the world, thanks to the huge generosity of American taxpayers, Professor Shakhashiri said the country is at some risk of losing its competitive edge. He’s pleased with the bi-partisan support for the Initiative and said the U.S. must stay in the lead in research and development because it benefits the country and, eventually, the entire world.

• A caller asked whether funding is the answer to getting more people into careers in science and technology, or whether pop culture and social values are defining what’s important. Professor Shakhashiri said money is only a means to an end and can’t be the only answer–he said it’s also a matter of attitude. Governments and elected officials are showing that they want to support research and education, and he said all of us, as citizens, must insist on good outcomes in the use of our money. The caller, who identified himself as a mechanical engineering student, said few people seem to be interested in science and technology. Professor Shakhashiri said there is currently a lot of emphasis on recruiting more and better math and science teachers and improving the environment for them to teach.

• Another caller, identifying herself as a grandmother, said children love science and math when they have good teachers, but said many teachers can’t make them exciting. The caller said that in her experience, schools generally are not good at getting students excited about math and science. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that teachers are the key in nurturing the curiosity of children and giving them learning opportunities, but added that parental involvement is also critical. Many of the programs offered by the Wisconsin Initiative for Science Literacy also involve parents and other family members. He said all of society must be involved to ensure a good learning environment. Professor Shakhashiri noted that teachers are required to do many things besides teach their subject, such as ensuring school safety, sometimes under difficult conditions. “I’m impressed by what teachers do, and depressed by the many things they are required to do,” he said. He added that there’s a nationwide teacher shortage and a need to attract good new teachers in all areas.

• Another caller, listening on the web from Seattle, Washington, said there’s too much emphasis on pedagogy, taking education courses, and not enough on a teacher’s knowledge of the field. Professor Shakhashiri said teachers must be enthusiastic and inspiring to nurture curiosity. He said the purpose of education is to enable people to fulfill their potential–he describes himself as a talent developer–and this requires good curriculum, enthusiastic teachers and administrators, and the support of the entire community. Professor Shakhashiri said teacher’s salaries are too low, a reflection of society’s values, and that everyone who cares about education should work to increase the salaries to attract and keep the best teachers.

• A caller said the University of California–Berkeley is putting lectures on the internet for free and asked about resources for non-students. Professor Shakhashiri said many institutions, including the UW-Madison are trying to reach all learners, not just enrolled students. He said there are many programs available in most areas and urged listeners to check out University web sites, local government and school district cable channels such as cable channel 10 in Madison, and programs available from science centers, museums, zoos and gardens.

The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners.

• Larry asked about the president’s proposed budget for fiscal 2008. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s fairly good for some federal agencies involved in science and technology, including the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy, the National Institute for Science and Technology and NASA. He said it provides big increases for the Department of Defense, but the National Institutes for Health does not fare so well (details at http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd//prel08p.htm. ) Professor Shakhashiri said advocates for bigger budgets are not a special interest group, since science and technology drive the economy. He said federal support for science and technology are critical and he urged all citizens who believe in the democratic process to get involved and help come up with a balanced portfolio for all needs.
  
• Larry asked about a recommendation from a presidential commission for a new national council to co-ordinate and promote science and technology education. The draft report was approved in January by the Commission on 21st Century Education in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics, which reports to the National Science Board, the governing body of the National Science Foundation (http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/edu_com/). Professor Shakhashiri said this recommendation is already controversial because it would centralize some functions that are now up to the states. He said it would set, but not dictate, national education standards (adding that these would not be standards enforced by the federal government, but guidelines for the nation.) Many national groups and states have already issued education standards, but Professor Shakhashiri said some type of national co-ordination is needed. He added that institutions of higher learning must be included to ensure the production of high quality teachers. He said a shortage of good teachers has the makings of a national crisis.
  
• While there are pockets of excellence in education around the country, he said many schools need help, not just federal money, but helping in empowering parents and teachers and establishing better curriculum.
  
• A caller who said his wife is a student math teacher said Wisconsin has very high standards for the knowledge of subject matter but does not test for the ability to teach. He said this discourages new teachers who have to achieve a much higher level of competence than needed to teach, but are not rewarded for the ability to teach. Professor Shakhashiri said knowledge and teaching skills should go together. He said it’s not enough for teachers to be competent in subject matter. He said they must be competent in subject matter but also be committed to teaching and to the success of all students. One recommendation of the president’s commission is establishing a national certification of teachers which would serve as a guide for states and school districts. Professor Shakhashiri said that would be desirable because of our very mobile society in which students and teachers often move between states.
  
• The next caller disagreed with the previous caller. Saying that he is a former teacher, the caller said many teachers today have too little knowledge of their subjects. He said the emphasis now is on teaching methodology with no requirement that teachers have a passion for or deep knowledge of their subjects. Professor Shakhashiri repeated his insistence that both subject matter knowledge and teaching ability are needed. He said there is a risk of becoming too enamored with technique and methodology, though he also noted that in the past 30 years there’s been a lot of advancement in understanding how people learn, and teachers should understand insights offered by psychological and neurological science regardless of the subject matter they teach. Professor Shakhashiri says when he’s asked, “What do you teach?”, he answers, “I teach students.”
  
• Larry asked if school districts, faced with a shortage of qualified teachers, must sometimes settle for teachers that are weak in either subject matter or teaching ability. Professor Shakhashiri said this is another reason for a coordinated effort at the national level.
  
• A caller noted that most of the money for education comes from the state and local levels of government and said it’s dangerous to believe that federal officials are more capable of making decisions. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that decisions should be made at the local level, and said the national coordinating council would not have the power to dictate unfunded mandates on state or local governments. He is opposed to unfunded mandates from either the state or federal government levels. Under the plan Professor Shakhashiri supports, federal certification would be a guideline, which would help school districts in the case of teachers coming from other parts of the country, but he says school districts should still be able to hire teachers without regard to whether they have the federal certification. But he added that he would like all of his students in freshman chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison to have the same background regardless of which high school they went to or which state they come from.
  
• Another caller, noting that the debate over the goals and quality of education has been going on for decades, said he was dissatisfied with the quality of education even in a wealthy Wisconsin suburb which is considered to have excellent schools. The caller said he went to school in Europe, where education is better, and asserted that the teachers in his school district don’t know what they are doing. Professor Shakhashiri noted that parents have different expectations in respect to education and the U.S. does not have the monolithic approach to education that many other countries do. He said we should study what others do and learn from them, but also said he would not change our systems (plural) for any others in the world. Professor Shakhashiri said pluralism and diversity is a strength, and he predicted that the debate over education will continue for many years to come, and he said other countries are not having similar discussions.
  
• Larry mentioned another approach to teaching science and technology, Cyberchase, a game available on www.pbskids.org. Professor Shakhashiri recommends the web site, saying that it instills interest and enthusiasm for science, but he also said the best learning is through human interaction. He said the web site, and other media, are useful learning tools, but that teachers and parents should not abdicate their responsibility for teaching.

The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from listeners.

• Larry asked about the decision by the National Science Foundation to close the radio observatory at Arecibo, Puerto Rico, which has the world’s most powerful radio telescope (and was featured in Carl Sagan’s book and movie Contact.) Professor Shakhashiri said the reason is a budget problem and the fact that a new radio astronomy center, the Atacama Large Millimeter Array, or ALMA is under construction in Chile. He said the only place where the NSF can make big budget cuts is in its national centers, and NSF says the Arecibo Center (managed under contract by Cornell University) is the least used by astronomers from outside Cornell. Professor Shakhashiri has asked several astronomers for their opinions, and he reports that they have mixed feelings. They are pleased with the new telescope in Chile, but would also like to keep Arecibo in operation. Professor Shakhashiri said many colleagues have expressed concern that a major facility is being shut down for lack of funding while the United States is spending two hundred and fifty million dollars a day on the military. He said decisions on spending priorities should be made carefully. NSF hopes that private funding will come to the rescue, but Professor Shakhashiri doubts that will happen. More information is at http://www.naic.edu/
  
• Larry noted that Congress has adjourned without voting on most spending bills. It passed just two of 11 spending bills (one of those passed was the military budget). That means most federal agencies will continue at the levels of the previous federal budget, which expired on October 1. Professor Shakhashiri said Congress decided to let the next Congress take care of the budget. Calling the lack of action “borderline irresponsible”, Professor Shakhashiri said many science projects are authorized and ready to go, and he noted that the lack of action effects many areas of the budget, not just science.
  
• Larry asked about an offer from the producers of the film An Inconvenient Truth to give the National Science Teacher’s Association 50,000 DVD copies of the film for distribution to science teachers. The NSTA turned down the offer, and one of the producers wrote an op-ed piece in the Washington Post complaining that the NSTA takes corporate funding and alleging that the NSTA refused to take the film for fear of offending oil companies which provide money for NSTA projects. Professor Shakhashiri is a member of the NSTA and its President-elect is science teacher John Whitsett of Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. Professor Shakhashiri said the NSTA’s decision is consistent with its policy of not distributing material for any organization, even though the NSTA’s official policy on global warming agrees with the movie. He said the organization gets four to five hundred such requests every year, and that it would have cost the organization more than one hundred thousand dollars to distribute the DVDs. Professor Shakhashiri said the NSTA offered to allow distribution of the movie at its national and regional conferences or to find some other mutually agreeable method of distribution. While the NSTA gets support from many corporations, Professor Shakhashiri said it must come with no strings attached (he said there were no strings attached to the offer of the DVDs other than agreeing to distribute them and pay the distribution costs). More at http://www.nsta.org/ , http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112400789.html, and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101490.html
  
• A caller said the NSTA has taken millions of dollars from Exxon-Mobile, and asserted that vested interests play a role in science education. The caller also asserted that education is being privatized and that outside funding always has strings attached. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s important to get support from all segments of society and he has faith in his colleagues in professional organizations that they will not take money with strings attached and that support for various projects will be fair and legitimate. Professor Shakhashiri said he would lead the opposition to any funding with strings attached.
  
• Larry asked why students in big cities seem to be lagging behind in science education and other areas. A new report says half of eighth graders failed a simple science test in 9 of 10 large cities. Professor Shakhashiri said the challenges facing large city school districts are enormous. He said we owe children the best education we can provide, yet many reports show failure after failure in large city districts. Professor Shakhashiri called it a national challenge that must be dealt with locally. He said attempts so far have made no dent in the problem and the federal No Child Left Behind act treats all states and school districts the same. Society needs to find the political will to solve the problem, he said, including paying teachers enough to retain them in the profession and providing high quality materials for students. He also said there are contributory factors including the big city environment, class size and socio-economic factors. He said the problem is complex and we can’t shy away from dealing with it.
  
• A caller who identified herself as a high school math and science teacher said she feels pressured to teach more things even though she said children don’t have the necessary basic background coming into high school. Professor Shakhashiri said all teachers at every level right up to graduate school feel that students coming to them have not learned the necessary basics at lower levels. He said the focus should always be on learning, which requires patience, parental guidance, good teachers and proper incentives as well as good curriculum and a good pace of instruction. Strategies differ according to age, he said, but parents should take a role and take advantage of all learning situations. He also called on teachers to be selective about topics and teach basic skills.
  
• A caller identified himself as a 20 year old who re-enrolled at the UW-Madison after serving for a year in Americorp. The caller said students should get out of the claustrophobic classroom and into the real world . He described helping teach middle schoolers and seeing them look into a microscope for the first time. Professor Shakhashiri commended the caller for coming back to school–many students who take time off do not come back. He said that among the nation’s 15,000 school districts there are many which are too poor to furnish equipment like microscopes. Professor Shakhashiri said he often hears of teachers who have gone through professional development programs but are unable to apply what they learned due to poor facilities, like a lack of microscopes. He said local people can do something about this if they care, but it’s not good for democracy if they leave it to someone else.
  
• Another caller said his school district has dropped letter grades in favor of indicating satisfactory or unsatisfactory progress. Professor Shakhashiri noted that there are different grading practices, which he said is a good thing because communities should decide what they want. He also said grades should not be considered punishment but can be a positive incentive instead. But he added that grades are not everything–the purpose of a course is to learn, not to get a good grade–that will follow when learning occurs and is properly assessed.
  
• Larry asked about the PBS telecast dates of ONCE UPON A CHRISTMAS CHEERY IN THE LAB OF SHAKHASHIRI.   Professor Shakhashiri said Wisconsin Public Television, showings are Friday, Dec. 22nd at 4:30pm; Sunday, Dec. 24th at 8am; and Monday, Dec 25th at 10am.  Elsewhere around the country viewers should check local listings.

The Larry Meiller Show dealt with the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from callers.

• Professor Shakhashiri participated in the program by telephone from Augusta, Ga., where he was speaking at a regional meeting of the American Chemical Society.

• Larry asked if there are clear messages from the candidates in the upcoming election concerning science and technology. Professor Shakhashiri said the direct answer is “no”. He said he’s very disappointed with the mostly negative campaign ads and stated that we deserve better leadership from all candidates. Since science and technology drive the economy, Professor Shakhashiri said we must elevate the level of discussion in the campaigns, about stem cell research, for example, and pay attention to the ramifications of decisions. Professor Shakhashiri wishes that politicians would seek more advice from science, but added that scientists have been too reticent about offering advice. He said we all have a responsibility to participate in the democratic process.

• A caller said that politicians follow science when it suits their needs but otherwise ignore it. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s important for everyone to engage in dialogue about important issues and do so with respect for human beings, though not necessarily for ideas. He said the political process is what brought us to the great plateau on which we now stand and we should be talking about all important issues. Professor Shakhashiri said religion and science do not clash but represent to different realms. He said they are the strongest forces in society today and should work together and not take unreasonable positions that are detrimental to society.

• Larry mentioned an article in Science magazine about a new discovery concerning water. There are at least 15 stable crystalline or amorphous types of ice, and the new discovery concerns a crystalline form called ice 7. When subjected to high pressure and bombardment by X rays, ice seven produces an alloy of hydrogen and oxygen which is very different from the product of freezing hydrogen and oxygen together. Professor Shakhashiri said there’s no practical application of this discovery so far, but it will trigger more research. He said this shows how our ability is now so great to explore substances at the microscopic level that many subjects, including common water, are revealing new secrets.

• A caller asked how to get information on college scholarships. Professor Shakhashiri said one step is to contact the department the student is interested in, such as the chemistry or physics departments at universities. Many scholarships are available through departments, especially for graduate students. He also urged the caller to contact the National Science Foundation which has scholarships for grad students which are portable–the student can take them to any university.

• A caller said that more basic science information must be made available to the general public or people won‘t be able to vote intelligently. The caller said she recently had lunch with a group of lawyers and could not convince them that there is such a thing as distilled water–they insisted that all water is the same. Professor Shakhashiri said this problem is what the Wisconsin Initiative for Science Literacy is all about–improving the level of science literacy of all citizens.. He noted that distilled water is different from tap water–it contains no minerals. (Distilled water does not conduct electricity–it’s the minerals in tap water that make it conductive.) Professor Shakhashiri said some people need to be approached with patience and understanding, and that it’s a reflection on our educational institutions that the level of understanding is so low. He said schools should make sure that everyone gets a good exposure to science and math to allow them to develop the attitude that lets them succeed in a society dominated by science and technology.

• The next caller asked how society can be better educated. Professor Shakhashiri said that’s the big question, and the solution requires working at all levels of schooling to make sure that students understand the nature of science, including its limitations, and understand that the results of science can be either good or harmful. He said that how we handle technology is a human question and that science education is a dynamic process which can be improved.

• Larry asked about a recent survey which showed that students do best in math in countries where they say they don’t like math. He asked if happiness is over-rated. Professor Shakhashiri said math is a creative endeavor and that success depends on how it’s taught and whether connections are made to real life. “When I first took calculus”, he said, “I didn’t understand its use until I later took physical chemistry, where it helped me understand the connections.” He said it’s the job of both teachers and parents to encourage interest in math.

• Another caller said that the media are dumbing down science. He referred to stories about outbreaks of e coli infections which ignore the fact that e coli is ubiquitous, found in the digestive tracts of all people, and that only certain strains of e coli cause disease. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that it would be better for the media to be correct and accurate in reporting and he called this another example of how we should all pay closer attention to public issues.

• Larry brought up the fact that SAT scores dropped considerably last year and asked whether that means anything and whether the next generation will be more poorly educated. Professor Shakhashiri said he’s not an alarmist but that this is one indicator that we must be vigilant about the quality of education. He refused to project the results into the future and say that the next generation will be poorly educated, but he said he is concerned about it. A federal government task force has recommended requiring extensive testing at the college level. Test results are indicators that we must pay close attention to the quality of education because we need a quality work force and people who care about the quality of life.

• Larry brought up the 37th annual Christmas Lecture and Professor Shakhashiri said there are (free) tickets still available through his web site http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/xmaslect/xmascheery.htm

• The Larry Meiller Show on September 26, 2006 featured special guest Francisco J. Ayala, Donald Bren Professor of Biological Sciences and Professor of Philosophy, University of California, Irvine. Professor Ayala was awarded the National Medal of Science in 2001. While in Madison, Professor Ayala gave two public talks, “Darwin’s Most Significant Discovery; Design Without Designer” and “From Biology to Ethics; the Biological Roots of Morality.” His talks were co-sponsored by WISL, The Center for the Humanities and the College of Engineering, University of Wisconsin-Madison.

• Professor Ayala said Darwin’s most significant contribution was the discovery of natural selection. Copernicus and Newton proved a revolutionary concept, that heavenly bodies obey the same natural laws that pertain on Earth, but unlike heavenly bodies, the development and behavior of organisms could not be explained by natural laws. Darwin’s discovery of natural selection provided that explanation.

• Professor Ayala provided an example of natural selection that can be duplicated in the laboratory. Take a test tube containing water, sugar and the amino acid histidine, a building block of protein which the bacteria can’t make for themselves. Add a few bacteria and within two days or so, the tube will contain billions of bacteria. Add a drop of streptomycin, an antibiotic, and most of the bacteria will die. However, a few which have resistance to the antibiotic due to random mutations will survive, and in a few days there will again be billions of bacteria in the tube, most of them resistant to the antibiotic. Take away the histidine and most of the bacteria die, but a few with random mutations that allow them to make their own histidine will survive. Within a few days there will again be billions of bacteria in the tube, all of them able to make their own histidine. Professor Ayala said the eye developed in the same way, starting with a few light-sensitive cells which gave ancient animals a competitive advantage. They reproduced, passing on the ability. Subsequent mutations developed the ability to sense light further until finally arriving at the sophisticated eyes of modern animals.

• Professor Alaya says there’s no reason to think that humans are through evolving. There is a great deal of variation within the human population and mutations continually arise, so the species responds to changes in the environment. For example, human populations that rely heavily on milk as a food source have developed lactose tolerance in adults, a trait that gives them an advantage. In many human populations, adults are lactose intolerant. Some populations and some individuals also have more natural resistance to various diseases. As humans respond to new changes in the environment, such as new types of pollution or psychological stress, evolution will continue. Professor Ayala said what evolution can’t tell us is where we are going.

• A caller asked why Darwin delayed so long in publishing his findings. Darwin’s diaries make it clear that he got the idea of natural selection in 1837, shortly after returning from his famous five year voyage as the naturalist on a British Navy surveying expedition. Darwin shared his early drafts with some other scientists and planned a large, multi-volume work, but he realized how revolutionary his idea was. He knew it had to be well supported and he wanted to collect as much evidence as possible. Darwin also knew that his idea would be interpreted by some as an attack on religion. Darwin was quite religious himself, having studied for the ministry, and his wife was very religious, and he wanted to avoid conflict. Darwin’s hand was forced in 1858 when he got a letter from a young scientist named Alfred Wallace outlining the idea of natural selection and asking for his comments. Darwin then wrote a single volume work, the famous Origin of Species, published in 1859. Wallace admired Darwin and, realizing that Darwin had worked on the idea for years, gave him credit for the discovery.

• The British scientific community mostly supported Darwin, but natural selection met with considerable resistance from the public and from religious leaders who believed he was trying to remove God from the process. But Professor Ayala said many theologians eventually realized that Darwin is religion’s best friend because it solves the problem of evil. The question of why God tolerates evil has been a longstanding problem for theology. But Professor Ayala said just as geology shows that earthquakes are the product of natural laws, not the wrath of God, natural selection shows that the selfish and violent tendencies of humans are also a product of natural laws and not a curse from God.

• A caller asked about “evolutionary psychology” or the evolution of cognition. Professor Ayala said some scientists think that cognition is made up of several components which evolved separately, though this is not accepted by everyone. The big question is how the mind–consciousness or self-awareness–came to be. In recent years, genes have been discovered that make human brain development different from that of our nearest relatives, but Professor Alaya says it’s still not understood how physical, chemical signals between neurons attain the unity of self-consciousness. He said this is one of the most challenging mysteries facing science.

• Another caller said science should be separated from religion, but said Professor Alaya let religion into the debate by bringing up his explanation of evil. The caller also said evolution and natural selection are only theories that are not supported by the fossil record. He said there should be millions of transitional animals from one type and one species to another, but there are none. Professor Alaya said the caller was mistaken–many transitional species have been discovered, the most famous being the early bird Archaeopteryx, which had wings and feathers but teeth like a reptile. Professor Ayala said it was about as intermediate as you could ask for. Recently a new species has been discovered that’s intermediate between fish and amphibians, and Professor Ayala said thousands of fossils have been discovered of different human-like species which evolved after the human line split from chimpanzees about six million years ago (in some cases it’s still uncertain which ones are our direct ancestors.). As for mixing science and religion, Professor Ayala said evil is not discussed in science classes, though some theologians welcome natural selection as the explanation of evil. Traditionally, evil has been divided into at least two types. Sin has been regarded as the price we pay for freedom–God wants us to be free, but that means we can choose evil. Professor Ayala called the second type “physical evil” such as natural disasters. Just as science shows that earthquakes are not caused by God to punish us, so natural selection explains the apparent cruelty in the world. He said that chimpanzees like to hunt monkeys for meat and sometimes seem to delight in torturing the monkeys before eating them. Professor Ayala said God did not design chimps to torture monkeys–their behavior is a product of natural selection. In reference to intelligent design, the claim that God either designed humans and other animals as they are or guided evolution, Professor Ayala said any designer making the human birth canal such a tight fit for a baby’s head would be fired.

• Larry asked Professor Ayala to summarize by asking what the relationship between science and religion should be? Professor Ayala answered, “Respect.” He said science and religion are the two great pillars of American life. Science gives us knowledge and a high standard of living while religion gives us purpose and values. He said we get values from religion which we can’t prove by science.

The September 26, 2006 Larry Meiller Show, with Professor Shakhashiri, included the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from guests.

• Larry asked about the results of a study by a National Academy of Sciences panel headed by Donna Shalala, former Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin-Madison and current president of the University of Miami. The panel also included UW-Madison Professor of Plant Pathology Jo Handelsman. The report blamed outmoded institutional structures for holding back women in academia and asserted that women have no innate deficiencies in science or other fields. Professor Shakhashiri called it a powerful report that doesn’t mince words. The report asks academic departments to show evidence of conducting fair and broad personnel searches and says they should be held accountable for searches even if corrections mean canceling searches and starting over. Professor Shakhashiri said it makes the point that gender bias must be eliminated.

• Larry also asked about a report from the Thomas Fordham Foundation that gives the state of Wisconsin a D- for K-12 academic standards, and says the state does not do well in educating poor students and minorities. The Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction disagrees with much of the report. Professor Shakhashiri said the Fordham Foundation has good people, including Chester Finn, who was Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan, but he also said the Foundation is a conservative think tank with a definite point of view. Nevertheless, Professor Shakhashiri views the report as a warning to pay attention to issues. He noted that in any comparison of states, or of students, someone must be at the top and someone must be at the bottom. He said rankings are not as important as setting and meeting standards. Wisconsin adopted new state academic standards about ten years ago, but Professor Shakhashiri said all standards must be periodically reviewed.

• Another report from the National Academy of Sciences, on kindergarten through eighth grade education, has also called for changes. Professor Shakhashiri said the report also calls attention to important issues. The report says doing science should be much more than reciting facts and setting up experiments, and Professor Shakhashiri agrees. The report says the next generation of standards should include four intertwined and equally important strands that comprise the committee's definition of proficiency in science:

• “First, students should know, use, and interpret scientific explanations of the natural world.

• Second, they should be able to generate and evaluate scientific evidence and explanations.

• Third, they should understand the nature and development of scientific knowledge.

• And finally, students' work should include active participation in scientific collaboration and discussion.”

• A caller said teacher pay has a huge effect on the quality of education. The caller said that in her city, Dubuque, Iowa, younger teachers need second jobs to make ends meet, detracting from the time they can devote to preparation for classes. Professor Shakhashiri said teacher pay in the U.S. is low and asserted that teaching is in danger of becoming a blue collar profession. He said bold action is needed to attract and retain top quality teachers. If the pay could be doubled, he said that would inspire current teachers, help recruit good new teachers and elevate the value of teaching. He said the discussion should be about ways and means of accomplishing this.

• Another calle