Professor Shakhashiri is a frequent guest of the Larry Meiller Show
on the Ideas Network of Wisconsin Public Radio. His next appearance will be
at 11:00 am on Thursday August 6th, 2008.
Below is some information about past shows.
Past Appearances 2005,
2004, 2003, 2002,
2001, 2000, 1999,
1998, 1997 and earlier
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers
- Professor Shakhashiri began by talking about fireworks. With the Fourth
of July coming up, there will be hundreds of fireworks displays in the U.S.
including a big display called Rhythm and Booms in Madison on June 28. Many
chemical transformations take place in a burst of fireworks, and Professor
Shakhashiri said putting together a fireworks show is an art as well as a
science. Fireworks provide displays of color and sound (and also smoke, though
it is not very visible after dark). Three types of energy are created, light,
sound and heat, though the heat is not detectable from the ground. The loud
noises are the result of the very rapid release of energy into the air at
speeds faster than the speed of sound, so that the result is a sonic boom
similar to that created by a aircraft flying faster than sound.
- The colors of fireworks come from metallic salts. The atoms of metals take
on energy and then immediately start giving it off in the form of light. Each
element has a characteristic color. Fireworks are made very carefully, by
hand, and are ignited by time delay fuses. Professor Shakhashiri said making
fireworks displays is a dangerous and exacting profession. He urged everyone
to obey safety rules and let the professionals make the displays. Fireworks
are classified as both low and high level explosives. The initial lift comes
from a low level explosive, while the air bursts are high level explosives.
A more complete explanation of fireworks is available on this web site http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/fireworks/fireworks.htm.
- Professor Shakhashiri also noted that the Wisconsin State Journal newspaper
in the edition of June 27, 2008, will have an article about fireworks on which
he served as a consultant. The Wisconsin State Journal’s web site also
has in interactive feature about fireworks which he urged listeners to view
at http://www.madison.com/wsj/media/fireworks08/index.html.
- Professor Shakhashiri also urged listeners to remember what the Fourth of
July celebration is all about, Independence Day. He distributes to his classes
a pamphlet printed by the University of Wisconsin-Madison called “American
Trilogy”, which contains the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution
and the Bill of Rights (the bill of Rights is part of the Constitution but
is highlighted separately). Professor Shakhashiri said the celebration is
about the freedom and the great heritage and traditions Americans enjoy. Professor
Shakhashiri is very excited about Independence Day this year because he is
celebrating the 50th anniversary of his arrival in the United States from
his native Lebanon and is grateful to be a US citizen
.
- Larry asked about a rew report from the Rand Corporation which says the
United States still leads the world in science and technology. This seems
to contradict other reports and studies which say the U.S. is at risk of losing
its lead. Professor Shakhashiri said the reports are not necessarily contradictory,
though the Rand report, http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/06/12/,
challenges the prevailing belief that advances in the rest of the world put
the leadership of the U.S. at risk. Professor Shakhashiri noted that science
and technology have no geographic boundaries, and the Rand report says the
nation must put together an effective national policy designed to serve everyone.
The America Competes Act, passed by Congress and signed by the President,
says other countries are catching up and casts doubt about the ability of
the U.S. to compete economically since science and technology drive the economy.
The Act calls for a summit conference which will be held in August at Oak
Ridge National Laboratory to analyze the status, progress and challenges facing
the U.S. and to develop policies to keep the nation competitive and promote
the use of science and technology, http://www.ornl.gov/sci/natlscitechsummit/index.shtml.
- A caller, who has watched Rhythm and Booms from a distance and noted the
large amounts of smoke created by the display, wondered whether the smoke
is toxic and contains heavy metals.
Professor Shakhashiri said the amount of metal salts in fireworks is relatively
small. While it might be hazardous to be directly underneath fireworks, and
breathing the smoke would not be a good idea, the crowds are always separated
from the fireworks, and the smoke disperses. He said the amounts used are
not dangerous, though people should be aware of the potential hazard. The
National Fire Protection Association (www.nfpa.org)
enforces stringent safety regulations for large fireworks displays. Spectators
must be kept at least 840 feet from the launch area (that's based on the height
and burst diameter of the largest shells). Shells may not be launched if winds
are stronger than 20 miles per hour, because they could be blown off course.
Nevertheless, many accidents occur with unregulated, informal neighborhood
displays, when spectators attracted to the activities stand dangerously close
to the launch area.
- A caller asked whether the amount of heat released by the combustion of
fossil fuels is a significant factor in contributing to global warming. Professor
Shakhashiri said the amount of heat produced is relatively insignificant compared
to the greenhouse effect of the carbon dioxide gas produced by combustion,
which traps solar heat after it hits the Earth.
- A caller identifying himself as a member of Sustain Jefferson, an environmental
group in Jefferson County Wisconsin, asked about the use of a stove to produce
gases from solid fuels, specifically hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases, which
are then burned in an internal combustion engine. Professor Shakhashiri first
warned the caller and the audience that carbon monoxide is highly poisonous.
The production of syngas–synthetic gasses–has been used for a
long time as an industrial process, and Professor Shakhashiri has handout
on the subject prepared for his chemistry classes. Here is a link with useful
information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas.
- Another caller noted that many fireworks displays take place over water,
providing an additional safety measure, but wondered if the chemicals fall
into the water and pollute it. Professor Shakhashiri said the salts that fall
into the water are substances like potassium chloride and sodium chloride
(table salt) and are produced in relatively small amounts. The Rhythm and
Booms display is over the North side of Lake Mendota in Madison, and Professor
Shakhashiri said it’s doubtful if any increase in the amount of salts
could be detected after the fireworks display, He noted that the use of salt
on roads in winter in Madison and surrounding areas results in far more salt
entering the lake than the fireworks could contribute.
- Professor Shakhashiri added another note caution. Many animals are very
frightened by the noise of fireworks and he urged people to leave their pets
at home when they go to fireworks. Larry added that friends of his took their
dog to a fireworks display and, even though they were far from the display,
the dog ran off.
- A caller asked about the pollution created by warfare in Iraq, both the
explosions of weapons and the pollution caused by aircraft. Professor Shakhashiri
said there’s no doubt that weapons explosions contribute to air pollution
on a much larger scale than fireworks, which are relatively limited in scope.
Other factors such as air temperature and wind also have an effect on the
amount of pollution, but Professor Shakhashiri said nations should think about
the proper use of science and technology.
- Another caller said that in a burst of fireworks, all of the streamers seem
to be coming toward him, even though the burst is three dimensional. He asked
if this is an optical illusion. Professor Shakhashiri said he and colleagues
are now working on another volume of chemical experiments focusing on the
properties of light, and human perceptions of light, which are often different
from the light itself. When an aerial firework explodes, its component stars
fly off in all directions. However, when viewed from a distance, these aerial
fireworks seem flat, as though they were displayed on a screen. We do not
easily perceive that some parts are coming toward us, while others are moving
away. We have a hard time seeing this, because we don't perceive the normal
clues that tell us the direction in which something is moving. Normally, when
an object moves toward us, it appears to grow larger, and when it moves away,
it appears to grow smaller. However, the stars in fireworks are so bright
against a dark background, that we can't get an accurate impression of what
size they are; their intensity saturates our retinas. We can't tell if they
are getting larger or smaller, so we judge them not to be moving either away
from us or toward us. Therefore, they look flat. If, however, we could see
them from directly below, we would observe that the stars move in all directions
away from the central explosion.
- When watching fireworks, we see them much sooner than we hear them. That
happens because light travels about a million times as fast as sound. The
speed of light is 300,000,000 meters per second, but the speed of sound is
only about 340 meters per second. If you are watching fireworks that are about
a kilometer (1000 meters) away, the light takes only 3 millionths of a second
to reach you. The sound takes about 3 seconds. You can tell how many kilometers
away fireworks are exploding by starting to count seconds as soon as you see
an explosion. Stop counting when you hear the explosion and divide the count
by 3. This gives the distance away in kilometers.
- Another caller, identifying himself as an amateur with a licence to make
fireworks, said fireworks makers rarely use sodium chloride because it’s
hygroscopic, readily absorbing moisture from the air, and fireworks with sodium
chloride can’t be stored for any length of time. He also noted that
some of the sparkling effects of fireworks come from charcoal produced by
the explosions. The chief source of yellow color in fireworks is sodium and
Professor Shakashiri wondered how the fireworks makers can created a yellow
color without sodium. The caller said some use other substances like ultramarine
and shellac, but that they are expensive and some makers avoid yellow. Professor
Shakhashiri noted that the web site has a table listing the colors produced
by different substances http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/fireworks/fireworks.htm.
- Another caller asked whether burning a pound of gasoline would produce more
than a pound of carbon dioxide, since CO2 is produced by adding oxygen from
the atmosphere to the carbon in the fuel. He reasoned that oxygen is heavier
than the hydrogen it would replace. Professor Shakhashiri said it would not.
The response on the radio was wrong. In fact, the weight of carbon dioxide
would exceed the weight of the hydrocarbon burned. If the gasoline were entirely
octane, for example, with eight carbon atoms, it would produce eight molecules
of CO2 when burned completely. This would create a weight of carbon dioxide
three times the weight of octane burned. The caller was correct!
- Finally, Professor Shakhashiri noted that people who experiment with fireworks
should know exactly what they are doing before proceeding with any manufacture
or use of explosives.
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers
- Larry began by noting the 25th anniversary of the report by a blue ribbon
U.S. government panel, "A Nation at Risk" (click here
or here
for more information). The report, released on April 25, 1983, was highly
controversial and called attention to many shortcomings of the U.S. education
system. Professor Shakhashiri said the nation is still at risk. He called
the report a clarion call by the Secretary of Education pointing out important
education issues. He said the report resulted in a lot more serious attention
paid to education, in particular science and math education, and greater vigilance
toward course offerings and how knowledge is communicated to students. Professor
Shakhashiri said the report should have been called "People at Risk", since
there is a very big gap between those who are science literate and those who
are not, an issue that goes far beyond national geographic boundaries. Professor
Shakhashiri added that, despite its flaws, the U.S. has the best education
system in the world because it is decentralized. There are approximately 16,000
school districts and 3500 colleges and universities in the U.S., and each
can do its own thing. While national and state educational standards have
been drawn up, each entity can still experiment and tailor its offerings to
suit local conditions. Professor Shakhashiri said there's a lot of room for
improvement in the U.S. education system. For example, he said we don't support
teachers as well as we should, and anniversaries are a time for reflection,
to consider what we must and ought to do in the future.
- A caller said it's time to review how science is used, specifically mentioning
pesticides and plastics as problematic chemicals. Professor Shakhashiri agreed
that we must all be responsible for how chemicals are used and their effect
on health and the environment. Science literacy is not just about advancing
knowledge of science and technology, but also examining how we use it, he
said, and we should all be aware of our role as custodians of the environment.
- A caller said "intelligent design" as an alternative to the theory of evolution
is not science. The caller said a scientific theory is testable and yields
new information, while "intelligent design" is a literature search looking
for flaws in evolution. He said "intelligent design" is not testable by observation
or experiment, is not correctable, yields no new information and does not
belong in the science classroom. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that "intelligent
design" is not science as portrayed in a just released movie
and he also noted that the New York Times for the day of the broadcast, April
29, carried an interview with Professor
Francisco Ayala, a former priest who is a professor of evolutionary science
and philosophy and who has written extensively about evolution and its enemies.
For more information about evolution and creationism click on the icon on
the upper right of our home page scifun.org.
Professor Shakhashiri said we should be respectful of people's rights to have
their own beliefs without necessarily agreeing with them. He said we should
always be vigilant about what people pass off as science.
- A caller asked about experiments to turn coal into gasoline. Actually,
a process for making liquid
fuel from coal is not experimental-it's been known for decades. But, it's
an expensive, energy-intensive process that produces pollution and does nothing
to reduce greenhouse gasses. Coal, gasoline and other fossil fuels are hydrocarbons,
containing both carbon and hydrogen. Burning any carbon-containing fuel creates
carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas contributing to global warming.
- A caller said students, and future teachers, don't get as much science
training as they should, and recommended other programs such as those offered
in every county by University of Wisconsin-Extension and 4H. He said a program
in Sauk County, for example, the Youth Environmental Project, offers hands-on
field work. Professor Shakhashiri said such programs are great, but should
not be a substitute for quality math and science in school. Professor Shakhashiri
is concerned about the elimination of lab work by many schools in many sciences,
primarily to save money. He said sciences are experimental fields and students
need hands-on, minds-on training. Science is all around us, he said, and how
we learn about it effects our quality of life.
- Another caller asked what is a greenhouse gas, what is global warming and
why is it bad? Professor Shakhashiri said the greenhouse effect is what we
see in a car parked in the sun. It gets much hotter in the car than the air
outside, because the car traps heat, just like a greenhouse and certain chemicals
in the atmosphere. The chief greenhouse gasses are carbon dioxide, methane,
nitrous oxide and water vapor, which trap heat which would otherwise be radiated
away from the Earth. Carbon dioxide made by burning fossil fuels (hydrocarbons)
is contributing to global warming. The consequences include rising sea levels,
more intense storms and changes in ecosystems as plants and animals deal with
new environments. For more information click here.
- The next caller said some of his friends insist that global warming is
a hoax, claiming that some scientists are on one side of the debate and some
on the other. Professor Shakhashiri said while there are some sceptics, and
that's OK, the vast majority of scientists say that global warming is under
way and that human activity is causing it. He said there's no doubt that global
warming is real and that nearly everything we do effects the environment.
For example, the internet
is responsible for three to three and a half per cent of electricity use in
the U.S. In answer to another caller, Professor Shakhashiri said the internet
is widely used and requires energy. He added that there's no way to un-invent
the internet, and that all advances come with a cost. Larry suggested that
the internet might have a net effect of reducing energy consumption by reducing
travel.
- Larry asked about the controversy over the chemical bisphenol A, which
is widely used in the manufacture of plastics. Findings that the chemical
can leach out of the plastic and be ingested by people, with adverse effects,
has caused Canada to ban the substance and in the U.S., the EPA is investigating
it. Of special concern if the use of bisphenol A in baby bottles, but it is
also used in most water bottles. Professor Shakhashiri said the public should
not be totally alarmed-he urged letting regulatory agencies investigate. He
also commended the Milwaukee
Journal-Sentinel for a series of reports on bisphenol A, and added that
if it is truly harmful, it should be removed from the market. For trade web
site on bisphenol A click here.
- A caller said American students get too much time off and that school should
continue through the summer, adding that the European system is better. Professor
Shakhashiri repeated his opinion that the U.S. education system is superior
to any other because of freedom of choice. The current 180 day school year
has its roots in the agrarian society of the 19th century when children were
needed in summer to do farm work. Professor Shakhashiri said that all citizens
should take responsibility in exercising our freedom of choice and consider
alternatives. There are other questions such as, what would be done with the
additional school days? He said we should examine why the UW-Madison has two
16 week semesters plus a shorter summer school, while some other schools have
a system with three semesters or four quarters.
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Jim Packard, substituting for Larry, and from callers
- Jim asked about the first day of Spring (even though Madison was about
to get more snow, on top of an already record-setting snowfall for the season).
Professor Shakhashiri said people look forward to more daylight. The vernal
equinox means equal amounts of daylight and darkness. But he said there are
many myths concerning the equinox. One is that on the equinox, you can make
an egg stand on end. Professor Shakhashiri brought some eggs and he and Jim
tried to stand them on end. They couldn’t. Professor Shakhashiri urged
listeners to do their own experiments to see if they make an egg stand on
end. He said it is a myth that it can be done only on the vernal equinox.
Another myth, he said, is that a raw egg can be spun on its side. A good way
to tell the difference between a raw egg and a hard boiled egg is to spin
them. The hard boiled egg spins well, while the fluid in a raw egg dampens
its spin. Professor Shakhashiri and Jim spun eggs, determined whether they
were raw or hard boiled, then checked their results by cracking them open.
Professor Shakhashiri said everyone harbors misconceptions. Twenty years ago
a survey conducted at graduation ceremonies for Harvard University found that
a large majority of the graduates, faculty and family members could not explain
the reason for the four seasons. Some thought the Earth moves closer to the
sun in the summer. Professor Shakhashiri said more recent surveys show improvement
in this aspect of science literacy, but there is still a long way to go. He
said the reason for the seasons is
the tilt of the Earth’s axis–in the Southern hemisphere, March
20 marked the arrival of Fall. He added that another good question is what
caused the tilt of the Earth’s axis.
A caller insisted that he had balanced an egg on end many times on the first
day of Spring, but added that it has to be done at noon, which he said would
be 1PM Central Daylight Saving Time, and said it’s not a myth. But Spring
officially began at 12:50 am, and Jim asked why the egg would balance only
at noon. The caller insisted that it does. Professor Shakhashiri urged everyone
to try it.
Another caller said egg balancing works only at the equator, and that she
had seen it done on the equator on the first day of Spring and had photos
to prove it. Professor Shakhashiri said the Internet is full of such pictures,
and asked what would be a plausible explanation for any egg balancing. He
urged listeners to try it and report their results on this web site.
Another caller reported trying to balance eggs and said it works only at the
Spring equinox, not at the Fall equinox. Professor Shakhashiri said this is
why he brought it up, so people would do the experiment and come up with their
own explanations. He called it a recreational activity that makes people think
about their own beliefs and think about different explanations. The shell
on most bird eggs is not completely smooth; it has small bumps and lumps.
When these rough spots are in just the right place, they can help to stabilize
the egg when it is placed on its end. So, with care, it is possible to stand
an egg on its end. The
myth is that it can only be done on the vernal equinox.
- Another caller asked what the effect will be on industry of oil at $100
a barrel or more. Professor Shakhashiri said it will have a very large effect,
not only on the cost of fuel but because most plastics are made from petroleum
feed stock, so it will effect the entire economy. The cost of many types of
plastic will go up, and he predicted that industry
would look to coal, which the U.S. has in abundance, as an alternative
feed stock. But he pointed out that coal mining is dangerous and environmentally
destructive. High oil prices are also making coal gassification for fuel more
attractive. In a process that’s been known for decades, coal is heated
to produce carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas, a product known as syngas, which
can then be converted to products like ammonia (used for fertilizer) and methanol
(for motor fuel). Professor Shakhashiri noted that China is building a new
coal-fired electric power plant every week and urged all countries to exercise
good judgment by considering the consequences of actions.
- A caller asked how to get information about sustainable crops for biofuels.
Jim said that Wisconsin Public Radio had a program on that subject. On that
program, Jim Packard talks with two researchers about the move to a bioeconomy.
They are UW-Madison Professor of Bacteriology Tim Donohue, and Michigan State
University Professor of Crop and Soil Sciences Phil Robertson. Both are involved
with the Great Lkaes Bioenergy Research Center. Click
here to listen to that program.
- Another caller asked whether snow evaporates more from the top or whether
it melts more from the bottom. Professor Shakhashiri noted that snow piles
shrink even when the air temperature does not rise above freezing (as long
as no new snow is added). Part of the answer is sublimation. Water ice not
only melts, it also undergoes a process scientists call sublimation, when
some of it changes directly from solid to gas without going through the liquid
phase. Frozen carbon dioxide sublimates, going directly from solid to gas,
which is why it is often called “dry ice”–no liquid is formed.
Other examples of sublimation are air fresheners, which contain solids that
sublimate, and frost free refrigerators, which circulate air to sublimate
ice buildup.
- A caller asked why the rotation of the moon is identical to its orbit around
the Earth, so that the same side of the moon always faces the Earth. An explanation
is given
here on the Web.
- A caller reported an unexplained increase in the temperature of cooking
oil when piece of fish, at room temperature, is added. The caller said a temperature
probe would show a temperature of 250 degrees, and upon adding the fish, the
temperature would shoot up to 350. The caller reported stirring the oil before
adding the fish. This turns out to be a common occurrence as the oil in the
pan is not uniformly heated. The oil is viscous, and the temperature can vary
quite a lot from one spot to another. A quick stir is not enough to even out
the temperature. However, when damp fish is dropped into the oil, the water
on the fish vaporizes and bubbles up, and this bubbling effectively stirs
the oil. This stirring mixes the hotter oil with the cooler oil, and the thermometer
registers a temperature change.
- Another caller wondered whether, in a turning shaft of solid metal, there
would be something at dead center of that shaft that was not turning. The
caller described rotation by referring to one side of the shaft (as viewed
from the end) as going up and one side going down. Another caller explained
that the entire shaft was rotating in the same direction, and that a point
on its surface would be going in a circle, not up or down, and that the molecules
at the center would also be spinning in the same direction. In an e-mail message
sent after the show Dr. Margaret
C. Turnbul explained: “The atoms exactly at the middle of the shaft
are still rotating, but they are ‘stationary’ in that they are
not traveling around the axis of rotation like the rest of the material
further out from the center. The center of the shaft is spinning in place
while the rest of the shaft is circumscribing circles around that center.
The same is true at the north pole of the earth, which (ignoring the earth's
revolution around the sun) is spinning, but not translating.”
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers
- Larry began by asking Professor Shakhashiri if there should be a debate
between the presidential candidates on the subject of science and technology.
Several organizations, including the National
Academy of Science and
SCIENCE Magazine have called for such a debate, which would be
the first of its kind. Professor Shakhashiri said such a debate would be a
good idea because science and technology are the engines that drive the economy
and have serious impacts on all aspects of society. He emphasized that it
would not be a debate on the content of science, testing the candidates’
knowledge, but on the application and use of science and technology. Professor
Shakhashiri said a debate would call attention to the significance of science
in our daily lives on many themes including health care, energy, the environment,
homeland security, education and international competitiveness. He urged candidates
to tell voters where they stand and where they might take us, bringing the
discussion to a wider audience. He asked listeners for their ideas on what
topics should be discussed.
Professor Shakhashiri mentioned an example of a question that might be asked:
Do you think presidential appointees should be subject to a litmus test on
issues like embryonic stem cell research, a carbon tax, mining safety, FDA
regulations, and regulation of genetically modified foods?
The first caller said candidates should be asked for their views on monopolies
on technology such as computer operating systems and digital broadcasting,
where a few companies control access. Professor Shakhashiri said that’s
an important issue–the federal role in technology transfer, bringing
new developments to market and who controls them--something all elected officials
should be thinking about.
Another caller said a big problem is what the media does with the candidates’
answers and complained that the answers might be complicated and legalistic.
Professor Shakhashiri said any debate must be understood by all of us and
said he’s been disappointed by many statements by public officials which
don’t show any respect for the intelligence of the American public.
"Some political statements show they think we’re dumb," he
complained. The answers should be in plain talk, he said, and if they don’t
know the answer, they should say so. "That’s what we do in science,"
he continued, "we have more questions than answers."
- A caller asked if there are processes to take carbon out of the atmosphere
and sell it and whether there’s research on sequestration of carbon
from burning fossil fuels (carbon dioxide is the main greenhouse gas contributing
to global warming). An interesting approach was just reported in
the New York Times.
Professor Shakhashiri said there’s a lot of research going on concerning
removing carbon from smokestack emissions but that economics are the problem,
not only the cost in money but the amount of energy required to remove the
carbon. Carbon and oxygen are bonded very strongly in CO2 and it
takes a lot of energy to break the bond. There are ways to do it, but the
question is whether it can be economically feasible. Another question is what
to do with the carbon if it’s removed, he continued. If it’s burned
again, that would create more CO2. Just because something can be
done, Professor Shakhashiri continued, doesn’t mean it’s wise
to do it because there can be many considerations to take into account.
- Another caller asked about the use of platinum as a catalyst to remove
carbon from emissions, and also asked how long it will take before hydrogen
fuel cells replace fossil fuels. Professor Shakhashiri said many metals can
be used as catalysts and there’s a lot of research going on toward sequestration
of carbon from emissions. Concerning hydrogen fuel cells, Professor Shakhashiri
said he has no crystal ball concerning the timeline. There’s a lot of
research going on to make the hydrogen economy feasible, but patience and
persistence are needed in supporting the research, see http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/.
Once question is economic viability and, he added, there’s also a safety
issue. Hydrogen is explosive.
- Larry asked about a new report
on science and engineering indicators from the National Science Board,
the overseer of the National Science Foundation. The board is required by
law to make a report every two years to the President and Congress on the
status of science and technology. Among other things, the board reports on
the effect of federal support for scientific research and its impact on the
economy, globalization and international affairs.
Professor Shakhashiri said it’s a useful document, and he always looks
at the chapter on public attitudes and understanding of science and technology.
That report is based on extensive surveys. For example, surveys show that
more Americans say television is their greatest source of science and technology
information, leading all other sources, and that the internet is now the second
leading source. Professor Shakhashiri said when he first appeared on Larry’s
show 20 years ago, there was no internet, and he warned that while the internet
has a lot of information, not all of it is valuable. He said it’s intriguing
and challenging to think about what might be sources of information 20 years
from now.
The surveys show that the public’s respect for scientists is very high,
but that public knowledge of science has not changed much over the years,
and Professor Shakhashiri says it could be a lot better. For example, only
one in ten Americans consider themselves very familiar with biotechnology.
60 per cent of those surveyed believe they have not eaten genetically modified
foods, but in reality almost all processed foods contain some genetically
modified material.
- Another caller asked the classic question, "Paper or plastic?",
and wondered if plastics which are claimed to be biodegradable really are.
Professor Shakhashiri said there are many kinds of plastic on the market,
most of them made from petroleum, and that consumers should read labels carefully
and be clear about what they want to do. Consumers should think about the
disposal of many products, he said, asking whether products really get recycled
and what’s the cost of recycling. The caller specifically asked about
polypropylene, and Professor Shakhashiri said he doesn’t think that
it’s biodegradable.
- Another caller asked whether plastic bottles can be dangerous when chemicals
leach from them into the liquid they contain. Professor Shakhashiri again
noted that there are many types of plastic and that they contain a whole slew
of chemicals. He commended the Milwaukee Journal and other publications for
extensive coverage of the issue. He noted that there might be a special problem
with baby bottles as they may contain bisphenol A and are reused repeatedly.
He said some bottles are made overseas and should be subject to the same controls
as those made in the U.S. Professor Shakhashiri said harder plastics, like
polycarbonate and HDPE (high density polyethylene), have very little leaching.
Larry said he is planning a future show with a leading researcher on this
subject.
- A caller asked about the use of technology developed by research paid for
by public funds, noting that the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF)
is suing Intel over alleged patent violations. The caller said that might
have a chilling effect on putting technology to use, while also saying that
private companies shouldn’t be able to simply take technology for nothing.
Professor Shakhashiri said that when a University researcher comes up with
a new invention, any money earned is shared by WARF, which in turn uses the
money to fund many research projects. He noted that patent holders have to
be careful about infringements. It’s part of the legal system, and if
they don’t defend their patents, they lose them. In a broader sense,
Professor Shakhashiri said discoveries made with public money should be made
public through open access, rather than being held as proprietary information
or published only in journals which the public must pay to access. He noted
that the National Institutes of Health requires, by law, that grantees make
their findings available on the web after a short period of time. Professor
Shakhashiri said he’s for open access (with the exception of classified
research) and that this would be a good question for the presidential debate.
- Another caller, who identified himself as a former employee of the Jet Propulsion
Lab, which launches unmanned spacecraft, said unmanned spacecraft have collected
a lot more useful data than manned spacecraft and at far less cost. He said
he’s not against manned expeditions, but complained that the space shuttle
gets all the glory while collecting a lot less information. Professor Shakhashiri
said this is another good question for a presidential debate. President Bush
has promised a manned expedition to Mars in the future, but Professor Shakhashiri
said that would be very costly. He said, "I’m not running, but
I favor unmanned exploration, and we need an open discussion of the issue."
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers
- Professor Shakhashiri began by talking about two books he got for Christmas,
Musicophilia, by neurologist
Oliver Sacks and The
Omnivor's Dilemma by Michael Pollan. Professor Shakhashiri said as we
begin a new year it's important for all of us to think about the role of science
and technology in our daily lives and to take responsibility for our actions.
With oil now at $100 per barrel, he urged listeners to think about three chemicals,
all greenhouse gases: natural gas (which is mostly methane, a greenhouse gas),
carbon dioxide and water vapor, the most dominant greenhouse gas. Even the
huge supplies of water in the Great Lakes are at risk and Professor Shakhashiri
said water supplies worldwide are in danger.
- A caller asked how using resources contributes to global warming and whether
alternatives should be considered. Professor Shakhashiri said while fossil
fuels are here to stay and can't be entirely replaced in the short term, alternatives
are needed that are economically viable and good for the environment. Every
time we burn a fuel containing carbon, that produces carbon dioxide which
acts as a greenhouse, trapping the sun's heat in the atmosphere. The rate
of increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is so high that we should
be alarmed and concerned about our fossil fuel use, he said.
- A caller identifying herself as a kindergarten teacher said math and science
are not taught well enough in lower grades. Professor Shakhashiri advised
anyone concerned with the quality of math and science teaching to consult
their state standards on teaching math and science and then communicate to
schools their concerns about implementation of the standards. While the standards
are not perfect, he said they provide a starting point for a discussion. The
most important element in teaching, Professor Shakhashiri said, is qualified
teachers who can nurture young minds with a healthy approach to learning.
- Larry noted that Exxon-Mobil has committed $125 million to improve science
and education teaching through the national "U Teach" program. The program,
to recruit and train teachers, was started ten years ago at the University
of Texas and Exxon-Mobil has committed to expanding it nationally. Professor
Shakhashiri said he's not an apologist for industry, but such actions can
demonstrate the utility of support for education from industry, and in the
past such efforts have led to more state and federal government support for
education. He noted that the program is not available in the midwest as yet,
but hopes the region will become eligible. For more information about "U Teach"
click here.
- A caller asked what is the difference between a theory and what we know
as fact. Professor Shakhashiri said we make observations, collect and validate
them, and then propose a theory to explain them. A theory is valid until disproven.
Then a new or modified theory is needed, and this is how progress is made.
In science, a theory is not just any idea, but is based on observation and
must be disprovable.
- Another caller asked whether there's a shortage is scientists and, if so,
why are there so many post-doctoral students who can't find jobs? Professor
Shakhashiri said those who assert that there's a shortage usually have a number
in mind for how many scientists are needed, and added that he has no such
number. Many reports say the U.S. is falling behind and doesn't have enough
native-born citizens going into math and science, and there are government
programs to remedy the situation. Professor Shakhashiri said the unemployed
post-docs may be a placement issue and that it's wrong to encourage study
in an area that doesn't lead to good jobs. However, he also said that better
educated people have a better chance to get good jobs not only in the field
they are trained for but in other fields as well. Professor Shakhashiri added
that the public has a shortage of understanding of science and that scientists
should not only advance knowledge but explain science to the public.
- Another caller asked about the difference between theory and fact and also
asked about developments concerning ethanol. Professor Shakhashiri said a
fact would be that table salt, sodium chloride, is a white solid that's soluble
in water and, when in solution, conducts electrical current. The theory to
explain the conductivity says that the solution of sodium chloride has ions,
charged particles, which conduct electricity. Concerning ethanol, Professor
Shakhashiri said it can be an alternate source of energy, but it contains
carbon, and burning it contributes to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and
to global warming. Larry noted that growing plants to make ethanol takes carbon
dioxide out to the atmosphere, making it carbon-neutral. Professor Shakhashiri
said photosynthesis converts carbon dioxide and water into sugars and oxygen,
but people have cut down forests and at the some increased burning fossil
fuels so there is a net increase in the amount of carbon dioxide.
- A caller asked about a recent article in the Smithsonian Magazine discussing
serious environmental pollution issues for the Ganges River which is sacred
to Hindus. Professor Shakhashiri said that education is key to progress and
that people should understand and respect cultural and religious beliefs to
successfully deal with such issues.
-
Another caller asked about the definition of a theory, saying that he calls
the theory of evolution a principle, and wondering how it could become a law.
Professor Shakhashiri said that while labels can be important, we shouldn't
get hung up on them. The goal should be to understand the theory and how it
got put together. Evolution, for example, is based on many observations from
many branches of science. Professor Shakhashiri added that in all discussions
where a theory seems to conflict with a religious belief, respect for the
other person is often missing. For information about the latest publication
from the National Academy of Sciences on science, evolution, and creationism
click here.
- A caller asked about a book called Endgame,
in which the author says cities can never be sustainable and must import resources.
Professor Shakhashiri said he doesn't agree that there's no such thing as
sustainable development, but he's willing to look at the book. He added that
we can do things in a more environmentally friendly way.
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers.
- Larry noted that Professor
Shakhashiri's 38th annual Christmas Lecture is coming up. All the free
tickets have been distributed, but "Once Upon a Christmas Cheery in the Lab
of Shakhashiri" the program will be telecast on Wisconsin Public Television
on the following dates: Friday, December 21 4:30 p.m., Friday, Dec 21 4:30
pm, Sunday, Dec 23 8:00 am, Monday, Dec 24 12:30 pm, Tuesday, Dec 25 12:00
noon, Friday, Dec 28 1:00 pm and Monday, Dec 31 9:00 am. For date and time
of telecast elsewhere around the country check local PBS and cable stations
listings. The Christmas Lecture is in the tradition of the great British scientist
Michael Faraday, who gave very popular Christmas lectures in the early 1800s.
Faraday's run lasted 19 years, which Professor Shakhashiri is about to double.
- Larry asked about a conference
at Oregon State University, which Professor Shakhashiri attended, on the
role of the scientist as educator and public citizen. Professor Shakhashiri
said scientists have a duty to communicate with the public at large as well
as with each other to share not only their results but their values. Science
and technology play an ever-increasing role in society, which makes science
literacy critical, he said, and scientists must take a more active role
- Professor Shakhashiri noted that Oregon State was the alma mater of Linus
Pauling, the only person to receive two unshared Nobel Prizes in two different
areas. Pauling received the Chemistry Prize in 1954 "for his research into
the nature of the chemical bond and its application to the elucidation of
the structure of complex substances", and in 1962 the Peace Prize for his
efforts to end atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons.
- Professor Shakhashiri called on scientists to renew their commitment to
communicate the excitement of science, the potential benefits of new discoveries
and the potential harm. He noted that Nobel Laureate James Watson, co-discoverer
of DNA, resigned recently as head of the Cold
Spring Harbor Lab he has directed since 1968 after Watson made what Professor
Shakhashiri called "irresponsible
comments" about race. Watson later apologized, but Professor Shakhashiri
said scientists have an awesome responsibility to communicate with the public
at large, to talk about the bad as well as the good and not ignore incidents
like Watson's comments.
- A caller complained that news reports often use attributions like "officials
say" or "studies show" without citing the sources. Professor Shakhashiri agreed,
and said he hoped journalists were listening. He said studies can contradict
each other, and science makes progress through skepticism, so there's a need
to know the sources. He noted that the University of Wisconsin-Madison includes
the name and contact numbers of researchers when it issues news releases about
research.
- A caller asked about the flight of frisbees. Identifying himself as a disc
golfer, the caller wanted to know if frisbees fly better in cold or warm weather.
Larry said that, as a golfer, he's sure that golf balls don't go as far in
cold weather. Professor Shakhashiri said several factors could be at work.
- Another caller noted that cold air is denser than warm air. That would
support Larry's contention-denser air would furnish more resistance to a golf
ball. Professor Shakhashiri urged callers and listeners to conduct experiments
to find the answer.
- Another caller, who identified himself as a flight instructor, noted that
aircraft get more lift from denser cold air than from warm air. A frisbee
gets lift just like an airplane wing, but the denser air also causes more
drag.
- Another caller offered an analogy: If you imagine an ever-thickening atmosphere,
at some point it would become thick enough to stop the frisbee completely.
At the other extreme, if the atmosphere were eliminated, the frisbee would
not fly at all and would behave like any other object thrown in a vacuum.
The caller suggested there's a sweet spot somewhere in between where the frisbee
flies best.
- A caller asked about the plans to build a super particle collider in Texas,
asking if it was ever built. The superconducting
super collider, intended to study atomic particles and the composition
of matter, was not built. In the early 1990s, Congress decided that the cost
was too great and refused to fund it. However, another large super collider
has just been completed in Switzerland by the international
atomic agency CERN. Another caller wondered about the method used by atomic
colliders. He said it sounded like smashing two watches together and examining
the pieces that fly off to determine how a watch works. But there's no simple
tool to take an atomic nucleus apart. It takes a tremendous amount of energy
to break up a nucleus, which is why the giant colliders accelerate particles
to extreme speeds before colliding them. Professor Shakhashiri said great
discoveries of atomic structure have been made by smashing nuclei.
- A caller asked about research at the University of Toronto by Professor
Ted Sergeant using nanotechnology to enhance the efficiency of photo voltaic
cells. The caller said the professor's book is "Dance
of the Molecules". Professor Shakhashiri said there are thousands of researchers
worldwide looking into both nano technology and solar power. An excellent
web site to consult is http://www.mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/.
- A caller asked by wind turbine blades are so thin. He noted that the sails
on a boat are as large as possible to catch more wind, and wondered why wind
turbine blades are not thicker. Professor Shakhashiri said the answer may
be related to the speed of the rotation and the weight of the material. Bigger
blades would require more wind to turn, while thinner ones could take advantage
of lighter winds. For information about wind power please visit http://www.science.org.au/nova/037/037key.htm.
- Larry noted that two UW-Madison faculty were recently honored at the White
House as recipients of Presidential Early Career Awards for Scientists and
Engineers (PECASE). Ahna Skop, Assistant Professor of Genetics and Medical
Genetics, College of Agriculture and Life Sciences and School of Medicine
and Public Health, was nominated by the National Science Foundation for her
research on molecular mechanisms involved in cell division. Sterling Johnson,
Associate Professor of Medicine, School of Medicine and Public Health, and
Middleton Veteran's Administration Hospital, was nominated by the Veteran's
Department for his research on neural disorders related to aging and brain
damage. Professor Shakhashiri said the awards are a great honor-only 58 were
bestowed nationally this year. The awards are intended to stimulate innovation,
increase awareness of careers in science, and connect basic research to real
life. Each recipient receives up to five years of research support from the
nominating agency.
- A caller asked about static electricity, saying she could not get into
or out of her car without getting a shock. She also said her mechanic reported
there was nothing wrong with the car. Larry said he has the same problem when
air is dry during the heating season, and that he quickly touches the car
without letting a spark to jump from car to finger. Another caller said he
uses his key. He said touching the key to a metal part of the car draws the
static spark, but that the holder of the key can't feel it (though he said
you can see the spark at night).
- A caller asked whether the dangers of nanotechnology are real or just fodder
for science fiction. Professor Shakhashiri said every new development must
be carefully scrutinized for possible adverse consequences. He said the public
should not be scared, but should insist on responsible investigation of any
potential danger. As with all technology, he said the result depends on what
we do with it. Many researchers involved in the area are concerned about potential
danger, and Professor Shakhashiri said it's not science fiction but a reasonable
concern.
The Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers.
- Larry began by calling attention to a special anniversary. September 17th
was the 50th anniversary of Professor Shakhashiri's arrival in the United
States, along with his family, from his native Lebanon (he became a citizen
in 1974). Professor Shakhashiri said they have been 50 wonderful years for
the entire family (his parents are deceased but he has two sisters and their
families as well as his own family in the U.S.). Professor Shakhashiri said
it's a privilege to be a US citizen, something many Americans take for granted.
Calling the United States "the most advanced society in the history of the
world", Professor Shakhashiri said that, nevertheless, it's not perfect, and
everyone has a responsibility to strive to improve our society.
- Professor Shakhashiri's father was a medical doctor specializing in public
health. He came to the U.S. on a one-year sabbatical to the Harvard School
of Health, ended up extending his stay every year, and finally joined the
National Institutes for Health. Professor
Shakhashiri said the family visited Madison in 1958 to see his father's sister,
who was a graduate student at UW-Madison. He had no inkling that 12 years
later he would join the faculty of what he calls "one of the greatest institutions
in the world."
- Professor Shakhashiri said the future is up to us, depending on what we
do with advances in science and technology. He invited callers to offer their
opinions on the most important scientific and technological changes in the
last 50 years. Professor Shakhashiri said one of the biggest changes has been
in space exploration. Shortly after his arrival in the U.S., the
Soviet Union launched Sputnik on Oct. 4, 1957 which was a shock to the
United States which was seen by some as a military threat. The result was
a huge influx of support for science and math education as well as a huge
commitment to the space program.
- A caller asked about news
that a UW-Madison laboratory doing research on the Ebola virus has been sanctioned
by the federal government over safety regulations. The UW says the lab
never assembled a living Ebola virus and that there has been no danger
to the public.
- A caller said he was a student at the UW-Madison in the early 1970s and
had a roommate who took Professor Shakhashiri's introductory chemistry course
and throughly enjoyed it. The caller asked about the whereabouts of two of
his own favorite chemistry professors. Professor Shakhashiri said Professor
Alex Koch is retired and living in Colorado and Professor John Walters left
the UW to teach at St. Olaf College and has since retired. Professor Shakhashiri
said it was delightful to get a call asking about former teachers, acknowledging
their service. He urged alumni to get a copy of The Badger Chemist,
an annual publication of chem department news available to all chemistry graduates
(the next edition will be out soon). Grads can get a copy by contacting the
chemistry department or contacting Professor Shakhashiri through this web
site. Archived copies are at: http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/UW/subcollections/BadgerChemistAbout.shtmlhttp://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/UW/subcollections/BadgerChemistAbout.shtml
- Professor Shakhashiri said contact with students and parents is precious.
He told of a recent trip to Door County, Wisconsin, to participate in the
WaterFest program at Crossroads
at Big Oak. A parent of a former student of Professor Shakhashiri's initiated
the invitation. Professor Shakhashiri gave several lectures and visited a
middle school, and said such connections are very important and contribute
to a sense of community. Professor Shakhashiri said he was very pleased to
meet at WaterFest the father of a current student in his first-year chemistry
course.
- A caller said science and religion seem to conflict, but that truth should
be a part of religion and the two shouldn't conflict. Professor Shakhashiri
said science and religion are different domains of human endeavor and can
be made to conflict, but that conflict is not inevitable. Professor Shakhahsiri
tries to communicate the values of science to all audiences, including religious
ones, and as long as the two sides maintain mutual respect, meaningful discussions
are possible. In many cases, respect is missing, he says, and then the dialogue
becomes a shouting match and is not productive. He said the public should
realize the limitations of science, what it can't do as well as what it can
do, and while two people may disagree, they can maintain mutual respect.
- A caller who identified himself as a newly retired chemistry teacher in
Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, said he relied on Professor
Shakhashiri's Chemical Demonstrations: A Handbook for Teachers (a four volume
set). The caller asked what advice Professor Shakhashiri would have
for new chemistry teachers just starting out. Professor Shakhashiri said one
of the most important qualifications is competence in the subject matter (whether
the subject is chemistry or something else). He said the teacher should know
more than what's in the textbook and have a broader understanding of the subject.
In addition, he said a teacher should be committed to the profession of teaching
and to helping students learn, finding ways to communicate effectively. He
said science can't be learned overnight and that it's more than just memorization
of facts. Finally, he said a teacher should convey the right attitude about
science, which includes many elements such as observing safety procedures
and the ability to correct mistakes while still positively reinforcing student
learning. While he always says, "Science is fun", Professor Shakhashiri said
what that really means is, "Learning is fun!"
- Another caller, following up on space travel as one of the biggest changes
of the last 50 years, asked about news that Japan
has sent a lunar orbiter. Professor Shakhashiri said space exploration
is only one of many big changes in the last 50 years. Another is in the area
of the environment. We have learned a lot more about pollution, the ozone
hole and global warming. Other areas are advances in health care and issues
related to education. Professor Shakhashiri said we must be responsible in
dealing with change because the sovereignty of the planet is in question and
the future will be based on what we do today.
- Another caller said the only reason he passed a college physics course was
a teacher who made it interesting. He added that his daughter took Professor
Shakhashiri's introductory chemistry course and reports that he was terrific.
Professor Shakhashiri thanked the caller for his complement but added that,
while teachers can inspire, the students must do the work and they deserve
the credit. The caller said he has two daughters in college and wondered what
security measures have been taken in the wake of the shooting last spring
at Virginia Tech, specifically, if there are drills concerning what to do
in case of an attack. Professor Shakhashiri said there have been no drills.
Fire drills are routine (the chem department had one yesterday). Professor
Shakhashiri said he has thought about what to do in case of at attack in his
classes but hasn't shared his plans because he doesn't want to be alarmist.
He said the possibility of drills is an important subject which he will raise
with his colleagues. He also noted that the University administration has
reviewed security measures with the
campus police.
- A caller asked about the cost of medical care, and said the amount of taxpayer
funded research is far greater than the amount of money provided by private
sources, and that government sources pay at least 45 per cent of health care
costs. Professor Shakhashiri said he is not familiar with those figures. Professor
Shakhashiri said it takes a lot of research and testing to get a drug to market.
Health care is a huge investment and he noted that it's a big issue in the
upcoming presidential election as most polls show health care costs are the
number one issue for voters, displacing taxes and crime, which have topped
the list for decades.
- A caller said his own family has gained personally from stem cell research,
and noted that the issue involves more than embryonic stem cells, the center
of the controversy. The caller said stem cell research is one of the biggest
developments of the last 50 years. Professor Shakhashiri agreed that the stem
cell debate has been narrowly focused and needs a broader view of the ethical
questions and benefits to society. The result of any new invention or discovery
depends on what we do with it, he continued. "Once invented, you can't un-invent
the gun", he said. "The result depends on what you do with it, and it's impossible
to predict what the effect of a discovery will be." For example, early research
on radar led to the development of the MRI, magnetic resonance imaging, which
is now a mainstay of medicine. Those researchers could not have foreseen this
use of their discoveries. For all discoveries and inventions Professor Shakhashiri
said "It all comes down to responsibility."
The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response
to questions from Larry and from listeners.
- Professor Shakhashiri began with a tribute to Don Herbert, television’s
“Mr. Wizard,” who died recently at the age of 89. Mr. Wizard pioneered
science on television in the 1950s, introducing millions of people to the
wonders of science, including Professor Shakhashiri. After he immigrated to
the U.S. in 1957, Professor Shakhashiri got his first impression of American
television from Mr. Wizard. It was a live program, and Professor Shakhashiri
said it was obvious that Mr. Wizard was a relaxed and confident performer,
dedicated to his work, and that he was also learning from the experience.
Professor Shakhashiri dedicated one of his books to Mr. Wizard, the fourth
volume of Chemical demonstrations: A Handbook for Teachers. The dedication
reads, “To Don Herbert, TV’s Mr. Wizard, who perfected the art
of communicating science to children of all ages.” Professor Shakhashiri
considered Don Herbert a good friend and mentor, and said he left a great
legacy, including many people around the world who became scientists because
of his influence. In 1998,
Prof. Shakhashiri and Don Herbert both received the Presidential Science
Initiative Award at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, Connecticut. Here
is Don Herbert's obituary from Science magazine.
- A caller asked whether any recordings of Mr. Wizard’s programs are
available. Yes, they can be found at the Mr. Wizard web site, www.mrwizardstudios.com.
His family is keen on maintaining his legacy.
- Another caller remembered a specific experiment that Mr. Wizard performed,
making carbon dioxide by mixing baking soda and vinegar in a beaker. He then
put out a candle by pouring the CO2 over it.
- Other callers also remembered Mr. Wizard. A caller recognized immediately
by Professor Shakhashiri as emeritus chemistry professor Marv Lang from UW-Stevens
Point, recalled seeing Don Herbert in 1994 at an awards luncheon for chemists,
and was impressed by his ability to captivate an audience, even an audience
of science professionals.
- Another caller said he grew up with Mr. Wizard, who was responsible for
his career as an engineer. That caller remembered Mr. Wizard putting bottles
of carbonated beverages in an ultrasonic cleaner, causing them to spout like
geysers. The caller compared it to the currently popular experiment of putting
Mentos in Coke (which also produces a geyser). That caller also remembered
a program, Things of Science, in which children were sent a science kit every
month, with materials and instructions for experiments. Professor Shakhashiri
said it’s hard to get science kits today because of regulations and
fears about selling chemicals. While some chemicals are dangerous, Professor
Shakhashiri reminded listeners that everything is made of chemicals, and said
the fear of chemicals borders on phobia. He noted that
Wired magazine had a recent article bemoaning the lack of chemistry
kits for children. While computer simulations of experiments are readily available,
he said that’s not the same as doing it yourself. He also noted that
many experiments described on the Internet involve explosions or other potentially
dangerous activities. While the Internet can be an excellent source of information,
Professor Shakhashiri warned that not all sites are equally good and urged
listeners to use common sense in evaluating sites. He also said that Don Herbert
was interested in learning, not just “gee whiz” demonstrations.
Professor Shakhashiri uses some “gee whiz” demonstrations himself
to capture attention, he said the emphasis is always on learning as the primary
goal and safety as a main consideration.
- A caller asked about another science program, Science Fantastic,
a national call-in radio program heard for three hours on Saturday night with
host, Michio Kaku, a professor at City University of New York. Professor Shakhashiri
said he hasn’t listened to it himself, but has heard and read about
it, calling it a good effort to improve the understanding and appreciation
of science. Professor Shakhashiri said that science programs in the media
have a big effect–he told Larry that every appearance on Public Radio
brings a lot of questions and encouragement, both via e mail and from people
he meets. Professor Shakhashiri added that the gold standard for quality science
on the radio is Science Friday with Ira Flatow, on National Public
Radio Friday afternoons.
- A caller asked about capturing carbon to prevent the production of carbon
dioxide, the greenhouse gas that most scientists now consider the biggest
cause of global warming. Some coal fired power plants already have scrubbers
to remove sulfur dioxide, the chief cause of acid rain, and scrubbers could
be used to also remove carbon dioxide. Chemical reactions could then break
down the CO2 and isolate the carbon. Professor Shakhashiri said
the main impediment to implementing such technology is the cost.
- Another caller complained that many sports people don’t take seriously
problems like chronic wasting disease in deer or the discovery of a deadly
virus in fish in the Great Lakes, and that they lack knowledge about the problems.
Professor Shakhashiri said ignorance is our worst enemy, which is why science
literacy is so important. For example, parts of the Midwest have recently
been under ozone alerts. Professor Shakhashiri said ozone is a poison, and
the alerts mean that people should curtail outdoor activities, like mowing
lawns, adding that running mowers just adds to the problem. Larry said that
when he was on a fishing trip to a northern Wisconsin lake, local people told
him the state Department of Natural Resources was netting muskies, taking
them out of the lake to stock lakes in southern Wisconsin. Larry looked into
the claim, and found that the DNR was netting fish in order to put transmitters
on them, and that the DNR actually stocked the northern lake with additional
fish every year. But when he told the local people what he had learned, they
didn’t believe him. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s the responsibility
of the agency to explain its actions better.
- A caller asked, “What’s the difference between a hypothesis
and a theory?” Professor Shakhashiri said that’s a profound question
because it’s very important to use language accurately. Professor Shakhashiri
urged the caller to look in a dictionary, and said he would look up the words
himself. While the words have meanings in everyday language–any idea
or assertion can be called a theory–their meaning in science is more
specific. From the American Heritage Dictionary:
hypothesis: c. “A conjecture that accounts, within a theory or ideational
framework, for a set of facts than can be used as a basis for further investigation.”
theory: a. “Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively
wide variety of circumstances; especially, a system of assumptions, accepted
principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict or otherwise
explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.”
- Finally, Larry asked about fireworks. With the Fourth of July coming up,
the SCIENCE IS FUN web site features
information about fireworks. Professor Shakhashiri urged people to enjoy
watching fireworks, and also to remember what the celebration is about, Independence
Day and the liberty that all Americans enjoy. “I don’t want to
get choked up about this, but I am”, he said. “We live in the
best country in the history of humankind, and we want to keep it that way.”
For more on the Declaration of Independence please visit the
National Archives web site.
The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response
to questions from Larry and from listeners. Professor Shakhashiri spoke via
telephone from the Chemical Heritage Foundation in Philadelphia.
- Larry began by congratulating Professor Shakhashiri on his receipt of the
2007
National Science Board Public Service Award. This prestigious award, with
only one recipient each year, is made by the board which oversees the National
Science Foundation. Recipients of the award are chosen for contributions in
areas such as: increasing the public’s understanding of the scientific
process and its communication; contributing to the development of broad science
and engineering policy; promoting the engagement of scientists and engineers
in public outreach; and fostering awareness of science and technology among
broad segments of the population. Professor Shakhashiri said he’s humbled
by the honor, which is a reflection on the great environment of the University
of Wisconsin-Madison, which engages students, staff and faculty to excel.
- Commenting on the end of another academic year, Professor Shakhashiri congratulated
all graduating students and thanked their parents and the rest of their families
for their support. Professor Shakhashiri gave the commencement address last
week at the University of South Carolina–Aiken. He said it was a thrill
to see the graduating students about to embark on making their contributions
to their communities. He said education is the key to success and bringing
about change, and urged graduates to work hard to pay back their communities
and society at large.
- Larry asked about the American Competitiveness
Initiative proposed by the President at the urging of Congress to promote
scientific education and research. The proposal is now working its way through
Congress with bi-partisan support. Among other things, it would increase the
budgets of the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy and the
Department of Education. Though research and development investment in the
United States remains the largest in the world, thanks to the huge generosity
of American taxpayers, Professor Shakhashiri said the country is at some risk
of losing its competitive edge. He’s pleased with the bi-partisan support
for the Initiative and said the U.S. must stay in the lead in research and
development because it benefits the country and, eventually, the entire world.
- A caller asked whether funding is the answer to getting more people into
careers in science and technology, or whether pop culture and social values
are defining what’s important. Professor Shakhashiri said money is only
a means to an end and can’t be the only answer–he said it’s
also a matter of attitude. Governments and elected officials are showing that
they want to support research and education, and he said all of us, as citizens,
must insist on good outcomes in the use of our money. The caller, who identified
himself as a mechanical engineering student, said few people seem to be interested
in science and technology. Professor Shakhashiri said there is currently a
lot of emphasis on recruiting more and better math and science teachers and
improving the environment for them to teach.
- Another caller, identifying herself as a grandmother, said children love
science and math when they have good teachers, but said many teachers can’t
make them exciting. The caller said that in her experience, schools generally
are not good at getting students excited about math and science. Professor
Shakhashiri agreed that teachers are the key in nurturing the curiosity of
children and giving them learning opportunities, but added that parental involvement
is also critical. Many of the programs offered by the Wisconsin Initiative
for Science Literacy also involve parents and other family members. He said
all of society must be involved to ensure a good learning environment. Professor
Shakhashiri noted that teachers are required to do many things besides teach
their subject, such as ensuring school safety, sometimes under difficult conditions.
“I’m impressed by what teachers do, and depressed by the many
things they are required to do,” he said. He added that there’s
a nationwide teacher shortage and a need to attract good new teachers in all
areas.
- Another caller, listening on the web from Seattle, Washington, said there’s
too much emphasis on pedagogy, taking education courses, and not enough on
a teacher’s knowledge of the field. Professor Shakhashiri said teachers
must be enthusiastic and inspiring to nurture curiosity. He said the purpose
of education is to enable people to fulfill their potential–he describes
himself as a talent developer–and this requires good curriculum, enthusiastic
teachers and administrators, and the support of the entire community. Professor
Shakhashiri said teacher’s salaries are too low, a reflection of society’s
values, and that everyone who cares about education should work to increase
the salaries to attract and keep the best teachers.
- A caller said the University of California–Berkeley is putting lectures
on the internet for free and asked about resources for non-students. Professor
Shakhashiri said many institutions, including the UW-Madison are trying to
reach all learners, not just enrolled students. He said there are many programs
available in most areas and urged listeners to check out University web sites,
local government and school district cable channels such as cable channel
10 in Madison, and programs available from science centers, museums, zoos
and gardens.
The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response
to questions from Larry and from listeners.
- Larry asked about the president’s proposed budget for fiscal 2008.
Professor Shakhashiri said it’s fairly good for some federal agencies
involved in science and technology, including the National Science Foundation,
the Department of Energy, the National Institute for Science and Technology
and NASA. He said it provides big increases for the Department of Defense,
but the National Institutes for Health does not fare so well (details at http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd//prel08p.htm.
) Professor Shakhashiri said advocates for bigger budgets are not a special
interest group, since science and technology drive the economy. He said federal
support for science and technology are critical and he urged all citizens
who believe in the democratic process to get involved and help come up with
a balanced portfolio for all needs.
- Larry asked about a recommendation from a presidential commission for a
new national council to co-ordinate and promote science and technology education.
The draft report was approved in January by the Commission on 21st Century
Education in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics, which reports
to the National Science Board, the governing body of the National Science
Foundation (http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/edu_com/).
Professor Shakhashiri said this recommendation is already controversial because
it would centralize some functions that are now up to the states. He said
it would set, but not dictate, national education standards (adding that these
would not be standards enforced by the federal government, but guidelines
for the nation.) Many national groups and states have already issued education
standards, but Professor Shakhashiri said some type of national co-ordination
is needed. He added that institutions of higher learning must be included
to ensure the production of high quality teachers. He said a shortage of good
teachers has the makings of a national crisis.
- While there are pockets of excellence in education around the country, he
said many schools need help, not just federal money, but helping in empowering
parents and teachers and establishing better curriculum.
- A caller who said his wife is a student math teacher said Wisconsin has
very high standards for the knowledge of subject matter but does not test
for the ability to teach. He said this discourages new teachers who have to
achieve a much higher level of competence than needed to teach, but are not
rewarded for the ability to teach. Professor Shakhashiri said knowledge and
teaching skills should go together. He said it’s not enough for teachers
to be competent in subject matter. He said they must be competent in subject
matter but also be committed to teaching and to the success of all students.
One recommendation of the president’s commission is establishing a national
certification of teachers which would serve as a guide for states and school
districts. Professor Shakhashiri said that would be desirable because of our
very mobile society in which students and teachers often move between states.
- The next caller disagreed with the previous caller. Saying that he is a
former teacher, the caller said many teachers today have too little knowledge
of their subjects. He said the emphasis now is on teaching methodology with
no requirement that teachers have a passion for or deep knowledge of their
subjects. Professor Shakhashiri repeated his insistence that both subject
matter knowledge and teaching ability are needed. He said there is a risk
of becoming too enamored with technique and methodology, though he also noted
that in the past 30 years there’s been a lot of advancement in understanding
how people learn, and teachers should understand insights offered by psychological
and neurological science regardless of the subject matter they teach. Professor
Shakhashiri says when he’s asked, “What do you teach?”,
he answers, “I teach students.”
- Larry asked if school districts, faced with a shortage of qualified teachers,
must sometimes settle for teachers that are weak in either subject matter
or teaching ability. Professor Shakhashiri said this is another reason for
a coordinated effort at the national level.
- A caller noted that most of the money for education comes from the state
and local levels of government and said it’s dangerous to believe that
federal officials are more capable of making decisions. Professor Shakhashiri
agreed that decisions should be made at the local level, and said the national
coordinating council would not have the power to dictate unfunded mandates
on state or local governments. He is opposed to unfunded mandates from either
the state or federal government levels. Under the plan Professor Shakhashiri
supports, federal certification would be a guideline, which would help school
districts in the case of teachers coming from other parts of the country,
but he says school districts should still be able to hire teachers without
regard to whether they have the federal certification. But he added that he
would like all of his students in freshman chemistry at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison to have the same background regardless of which high school
they went to or which state they come from.
- Another caller, noting that the debate over the goals and quality of education
has been going on for decades, said he was dissatisfied with the quality of
education even in a wealthy Wisconsin suburb which is considered to have excellent
schools. The caller said he went to school in Europe, where education is better,
and asserted that the teachers in his school district don’t know what
they are doing. Professor Shakhashiri noted that parents have different expectations
in respect to education and the U.S. does not have the monolithic approach
to education that many other countries do. He said we should study what others
do and learn from them, but also said he would not change our systems (plural)
for any others in the world. Professor Shakhashiri said pluralism and diversity
is a strength, and he predicted that the debate over education will continue
for many years to come, and he said other countries are not having similar
discussions.
- Larry mentioned another approach to teaching science and technology, Cyberchase,
a game available on www.pbskids.org. Professor
Shakhashiri recommends the web site, saying that it instills interest and
enthusiasm for science, but he also said the best learning is through human
interaction. He said the web site, and other media, are useful learning tools,
but that teachers and parents should not abdicate their responsibility for
teaching.
The discussion on the Larry Meiller Show included the following topics in response
to questions from Larry and from listeners.
- Larry asked about the decision by the National Science Foundation to close
the radio observatory at Arecibo, Puerto Rico, which has the world’s
most powerful radio telescope (and was featured in Carl Sagan’s book
and movie Contact.) Professor Shakhashiri said the reason is a budget problem
and the fact that a new radio astronomy center, the Atacama Large Millimeter
Array, or ALMA is under construction in Chile. He said the only place where
the NSF can make big budget cuts is in its national centers, and NSF says
the Arecibo Center (managed under contract by Cornell University) is the least
used by astronomers from outside Cornell. Professor Shakhashiri has asked
several astronomers for their opinions, and he reports that they have mixed
feelings. They are pleased with the new telescope in Chile, but would also
like to keep Arecibo in operation. Professor Shakhashiri said many colleagues
have expressed concern that a major facility is being shut down for lack of
funding while the United States is spending two hundred and fifty million
dollars a day on the military. He said decisions on spending priorities should
be made carefully. NSF hopes that private funding will come to the rescue,
but Professor Shakhashiri doubts that will happen. More information is at
http://www.naic.edu/
- Larry noted that Congress has adjourned without voting on most spending
bills. It passed just two of 11 spending bills (one of those passed was the
military budget). That means most federal agencies will continue at the levels
of the previous federal budget, which expired on October 1. Professor Shakhashiri
said Congress decided to let the next Congress take care of the budget. Calling
the lack of action “borderline irresponsible”, Professor Shakhashiri
said many science projects are authorized and ready to go, and he noted that
the lack of action effects many areas of the budget, not just science.
- Larry asked about an offer from the producers of the film An Inconvenient
Truth to give the National Science Teacher’s Association 50,000 DVD
copies of the film for distribution to science teachers. The NSTA turned down
the offer, and one of the producers wrote an op-ed piece in the Washington
Post complaining that the NSTA takes corporate funding and alleging that the
NSTA refused to take the film for fear of offending oil companies which provide
money for NSTA projects. Professor Shakhashiri is a member of the NSTA and
its President-elect is science teacher John Whitsett of Fond du Lac, Wisconsin.
Professor Shakhashiri said the NSTA’s decision is consistent with its
policy of not distributing material for any organization, even though the
NSTA’s official policy on global warming agrees with the movie. He said
the organization gets four to five hundred such requests every year, and that
it would have cost the organization more than one hundred thousand dollars
to distribute the DVDs. Professor Shakhashiri said the NSTA offered to allow
distribution of the movie at its national and regional conferences or to find
some other mutually agreeable method of distribution. While the NSTA gets
support from many corporations, Professor Shakhashiri said it must come with
no strings attached (he said there were no strings attached to the offer of
the DVDs other than agreeing to distribute them and pay the distribution costs).
More at http://www.nsta.org/ , http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112400789.html,
and
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101490.html
- A caller said the NSTA has taken millions of dollars from Exxon-Mobile,
and asserted that vested interests play a role in science education. The caller
also asserted that education is being privatized and that outside funding
always has strings attached. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s important
to get support from all segments of society and he has faith in his colleagues
in professional organizations that they will not take money with strings attached
and that support for various projects will be fair and legitimate. Professor
Shakhashiri said he would lead the opposition to any funding with strings
attached.
- Larry asked why students in big cities seem to be lagging behind in science
education and other areas. A new report says half of eighth graders failed
a simple science test in 9 of 10 large cities. Professor Shakhashiri said
the challenges facing large city school districts are enormous. He said we
owe children the best education we can provide, yet many reports show failure
after failure in large city districts. Professor Shakhashiri called it a national
challenge that must be dealt with locally. He said attempts so far have made
no dent in the problem and the federal No Child Left Behind act treats all
states and school districts the same. Society needs to find the political
will to solve the problem, he said, including paying teachers enough to retain
them in the profession and providing high quality materials for students.
He also said there are contributory factors including the big city environment,
class size and socio-economic factors. He said the problem is complex and
we can’t shy away from dealing with it.
- A caller who identified herself as a high school math and science teacher
said she feels pressured to teach more things even though she said children
don’t have the necessary basic background coming into high school. Professor
Shakhashiri said all teachers at every level right up to graduate school feel
that students coming to them have not learned the necessary basics at lower
levels. He said the focus should always be on learning, which requires patience,
parental guidance, good teachers and proper incentives as well as good curriculum
and a good pace of instruction. Strategies differ according to age, he said,
but parents should take a role and take advantage of all learning situations.
He also called on teachers to be selective about topics and teach basic skills.
- A caller identified himself as a 20 year old who re-enrolled at the UW-Madison
after serving for a year in Americorp. The caller said students should get
out of the claustrophobic classroom and into the real world . He described
helping teach middle schoolers and seeing them look into a microscope for
the first time. Professor Shakhashiri commended the caller for coming back
to school–many students who take time off do not come back. He said
that among the nation’s 15,000 school districts there are many which
are too poor to furnish equipment like microscopes. Professor Shakhashiri
said he often hears of teachers who have gone through professional development
programs but are unable to apply what they learned due to poor facilities,
like a lack of microscopes. He said local people can do something about this
if they care, but it’s not good for democracy if they leave it to someone
else.
- Another caller said his school district has dropped letter grades in favor
of indicating satisfactory or unsatisfactory progress. Professor Shakhashiri
noted that there are different grading practices, which he said is a good
thing because communities should decide what they want. He also said grades
should not be considered punishment but can be a positive incentive instead.
But he added that grades are not everything–the purpose of a course
is to learn, not to get a good grade–that will follow when learning
occurs and is properly assessed.
- Larry asked about the PBS telecast dates of ONCE UPON A CHRISTMAS CHEERY
IN THE LAB OF SHAKHASHIRI. Professor Shakhashiri said Wisconsin
Public Television, showings are Friday, Dec. 22nd at 4:30pm; Sunday, Dec.
24th at 8am; and Monday, Dec 25th at 10am. Elsewhere around the country
viewers should check local listings.
The Larry Meiller Show dealt with the following topics in response to questions
from Larry and from callers.
- Professor Shakhashiri participated in the program by telephone from Augusta,
Ga., where he was speaking at a regional meeting of the American Chemical
Society.
- Larry asked if there are clear messages from the candidates in the upcoming
election concerning science and technology. Professor Shakhashiri said the
direct answer is “no”. He said he’s very disappointed with
the mostly negative campaign ads and stated that we deserve better leadership
from all candidates. Since science and technology drive the economy, Professor
Shakhashiri said we must elevate the level of discussion in the campaigns,
about stem cell research, for example, and pay attention to the ramifications
of decisions. Professor Shakhashiri wishes that politicians would seek more
advice from science, but added that scientists have been too reticent about
offering advice. He said we all have a responsibility to participate in the
democratic process.
- A caller said that politicians follow science when it suits their needs
but otherwise ignore it. Professor Shakhashiri said it’s important for
everyone to engage in dialogue about important issues and do so with respect
for human beings, though not necessarily for ideas. He said the political
process is what brought us to the great plateau on which we now stand and
we should be talking about all important issues. Professor Shakhashiri said
religion and science do not clash but represent to different realms. He said
they are the strongest forces in society today and should work together and
not take unreasonable positions that are detrimental to society.
- Larry mentioned an article in Science magazine about a new discovery concerning
water. There are at least 15 stable crystalline or amorphous types of ice,
and the new discovery concerns a crystalline form called ice 7. When subjected
to high pressure and bombardment by X rays, ice seven produces an alloy of
hydrogen and oxygen which is very different from the product of freezing hydrogen
and oxygen together. Professor Shakhashiri said there’s no practical
application of this discovery so far, but it will trigger more research. He
said this shows how our ability is now so great to explore substances at the
microscopic level that many subjects, including common water, are revealing
new secrets.
- A caller asked how to get information on college scholarships. Professor
Shakhashiri said one step is to contact the department the student is interested
in, such as the chemistry or physics departments at universities. Many scholarships
are available through departments, especially for graduate students. He also
urged the caller to contact the National Science Foundation which has scholarships
for grad students which are portable–the student can take them to any
university.
- A caller said that more basic science information must be made available
to the general public or people won‘t be able to vote intelligently.
The caller said she recently had lunch with a group of lawyers and could not
convince them that there is such a thing as distilled water–they insisted
that all water is the same. Professor Shakhashiri said this problem is what
the Wisconsin Initiative for Science Literacy is all about–improving
the level of science literacy of all citizens.. He noted that distilled water
is different from tap water–it contains no minerals. (Distilled water
does not conduct electricity–it’s the minerals in tap water that
make it conductive.) Professor Shakhashiri said some people need to be approached
with patience and understanding, and that it’s a reflection on our educational
institutions that the level of understanding is so low. He said schools should
make sure that everyone gets a good exposure to science and math to allow
them to develop the attitude that lets them succeed in a society dominated
by science and technology.
- The next caller asked how society can be better educated. Professor Shakhashiri
said that’s the big question, and the solution requires working at all
levels of schooling to make sure that students understand the nature of science,
including its limitations, and understand that the results of science can
be either good or harmful. He said that how we handle technology is a human
question and that science education is a dynamic process which can be improved.
- Larry asked about a recent survey which showed that students do best in
math in countries where they say they don’t like math. He asked if happiness
is over-rated. Professor Shakhashiri said math is a creative endeavor and
that success depends on how it’s taught and whether connections are
made to real life. “When I first took calculus”, he said, “I
didn’t understand its use until I later took physical chemistry, where
it helped me understand the connections.” He said it’s the job
of both teachers and parents to encourage interest in math.
- Another caller said that the media are dumbing down science. He referred
to stories about outbreaks of e coli infections which ignore the fact that
e coli is ubiquitous, found in the digestive tracts of all people, and that
only certain strains of e coli cause disease. Professor Shakhashiri agreed
that it would be better for the media to be correct and accurate in reporting
and he called this another example of how we should all pay closer attention
to public issues.
- Larry brought up the fact that SAT scores dropped considerably last year
and asked whether that means anything and whether the next generation will
be more poorly educated. Professor Shakhashiri said he’s not an alarmist
but that this is one indicator that we must be vigilant about the quality
of education. He refused to project the results into the future and say that
the next generation will be poorly educated, but he said he is concerned about
it. A federal government task force has recommended requiring extensive testing
at the college level. Test results are indicators that we must pay close attention
to the quality of education because we need a quality work force and people
who care about the quality of life.
- The Larry Meiller Show on September 26, 2006 featured special guest Francisco
J. Ayala, Donald Bren Professor of Biological Sciences and Professor of Philosophy,
University of California, Irvine. Professor Ayala was awarded the National
Medal of Science in 2001. While in Madison, Professor Ayala gave two public
talks, “Darwin’s Most Significant Discovery; Design Without Designer”
and “From Biology to Ethics; the Biological Roots of Morality.”
His talks were co-sponsored by WISL, The Center for the Humanities and the
College of Engineering, University of Wisconsin-Madison.
- Professor Ayala said Darwin’s most significant contribution was the
discovery of natural selection. Copernicus and Newton proved a revolutionary
concept, that heavenly bodies obey the same natural laws that pertain on Earth,
but unlike heavenly bodies, the development and behavior of organisms could
not be explained by natural laws. Darwin’s discovery of natural selection
provided that explanation.
- Professor Ayala provided an example of natural selection that can be duplicated
in the laboratory. Take a test tube containing water, sugar and the amino
acid histidine, a building block of protein which the bacteria can’t
make for themselves. Add a few bacteria and within two days or so, the tube
will contain billions of bacteria. Add a drop of streptomycin, an antibiotic,
and most of the bacteria will die. However, a few which have resistance to
the antibiotic due to random mutations will survive, and in a few days there
will again be billions of bacteria in the tube, most of them resistant to
the antibiotic. Take away the histidine and most of the bacteria die, but
a few with random mutations that allow them to make their own histidine will
survive. Within a few days there will again be billions of bacteria in the
tube, all of them able to make their own histidine. Professor Ayala said the
eye developed in the same way, starting with a few light-sensitive cells which
gave ancient animals a competitive advantage. They reproduced, passing on
the ability. Subsequent mutations developed the ability to sense light further
until finally arriving at the sophisticated eyes of modern animals.
- Professor Alaya says there’s no reason to think that humans are through
evolving. There is a great deal of variation within the human population and
mutations continually arise, so the species responds to changes in the environment.
For example, human populations that rely heavily on milk as a food source
have developed lactose tolerance in adults, a trait that gives them an advantage.
In many human populations, adults are lactose intolerant. Some populations
and some individuals also have more natural resistance to various diseases.
As humans respond to new changes in the environment, such as new types of
pollution or psychological stress, evolution will continue. Professor Ayala
said what evolution can’t tell us is where we are going.
- A caller asked why Darwin delayed so long in publishing his findings. Darwin’s
diaries make it clear that he got the idea of natural selection in 1837, shortly
after returning from his famous five year voyage as the naturalist on a British
Navy surveying expedition. Darwin shared his early drafts with some other
scientists and planned a large, multi-volume work, but he realized how revolutionary
his idea was. He knew it had to be well supported and he wanted to collect
as much evidence as possible. Darwin also knew that his idea would be interpreted
by some as an attack on religion. Darwin was quite religious himself, having
studied for the ministry, and his wife was very religious, and he wanted to
avoid conflict. Darwin’s hand was forced in 1858 when he got a letter
from a young scientist named Alfred Wallace outlining the idea of natural
selection and asking for his comments. Darwin then wrote a single volume work,
the famous Origin of Species, published in 1859. Wallace admired Darwin and,
realizing that Darwin had worked on the idea for years, gave him credit for
the discovery.
- The British scientific community mostly supported Darwin, but natural selection
met with considerable resistance from the public and from religious leaders
who believed he was trying to remove God from the process. But Professor Ayala
said many theologians eventually realized that Darwin is religion’s
best friend because it solves the problem of evil. The question of why God
tolerates evil has been a longstanding problem for theology. But Professor
Ayala said just as geology shows that earthquakes are the product of natural
laws, not the wrath of God, natural selection shows that the selfish and violent
tendencies of humans are also a product of natural laws and not a curse from
God.
- A caller asked about “evolutionary psychology” or the evolution
of cognition. Professor Ayala said some scientists think that cognition is
made up of several components which evolved separately, though this is not
accepted by everyone. The big question is how the mind–consciousness
or self-awareness–came to be. In recent years, genes have been discovered
that make human brain development different from that of our nearest relatives,
but Professor Alaya says it’s still not understood how physical, chemical
signals between neurons attain the unity of self-consciousness. He said this
is one of the most challenging mysteries facing science.
- Another caller said science should be separated from religion, but said
Professor Alaya let religion into the debate by bringing up his explanation
of evil. The caller also said evolution and natural selection are only theories
that are not supported by the fossil record. He said there should be millions
of transitional animals from one type and one species to another, but there
are none. Professor Alaya said the caller was mistaken–many transitional
species have been discovered, the most famous being the early bird Archaeopteryx,
which had wings and feathers but teeth like a reptile. Professor Ayala said
it was about as intermediate as you could ask for. Recently a new species
has been discovered that’s intermediate between fish and amphibians,
and Professor Ayala said thousands of fossils have been discovered of different
human-like species which evolved after the human line split from chimpanzees
about six million years ago (in some cases it’s still uncertain which
ones are our direct ancestors.). As for mixing science and religion, Professor
Ayala said evil is not discussed in science classes, though some theologians
welcome natural selection as the explanation of evil. Traditionally, evil
has been divided into at least two types. Sin has been regarded as the price
we pay for freedom–God wants us to be free, but that means we can choose
evil. Professor Ayala called the second type “physical evil” such
as natural disasters. Just as science shows that earthquakes are not caused
by God to punish us, so natural selection explains the apparent cruelty in
the world. He said that chimpanzees like to hunt monkeys for meat and sometimes
seem to delight in torturing the monkeys before eating them. Professor Ayala
said God did not design chimps to torture monkeys–their behavior is
a product of natural selection. In reference to intelligent design, the claim
that God either designed humans and other animals as they are or guided evolution,
Professor Ayala said any designer making the human birth canal such a tight
fit for a baby’s head would be fired.
- Larry asked Professor Ayala to summarize by asking what the relationship
between science and religion should be? Professor Ayala answered, “Respect.”
He said science and religion are the two great pillars of American life. Science
gives us knowledge and a high standard of living while religion gives us purpose
and values. He said we get values from religion which we can’t prove
by science.
The September 26, 2006 Larry Meiller Show, with Professor Shakhashiri, included
the following topics in response to questions from Larry and from guests.
- Larry asked about the results of a study by a National Academy of Sciences
panel headed by Donna Shalala, former Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin-Madison
and current president of the University of Miami. The panel also included
UW-Madison Professor of Plant Pathology Jo Handelsman. The report blamed outmoded
institutional structures for holding back women in academia and asserted that
women have no innate deficiencies in science or other fields. Professor Shakhashiri
called it a powerful report that doesn’t mince words. The report asks
academic departments to show evidence of conducting fair and broad personnel
searches and says they should be held accountable for searches even if corrections
mean canceling searches and starting over. Professor Shakhashiri said it makes
the point that gender bias must be eliminated.
- Larry also asked about a report from the Thomas Fordham Foundation that
gives the state of Wisconsin a D- for K-12 academic standards, and says the
state does not do well in educating poor students and minorities. The Wisconsin
Department of Public Instruction disagrees with much of the report. Professor
Shakhashiri said the Fordham Foundation has good people, including Chester
Finn, who was Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan, but
he also said the Foundation is a conservative think tank with a definite point
of view. Nevertheless, Professor Shakhashiri views the report as a warning
to pay attention to issues. He noted that in any comparison of states, or
of students, someone must be at the top and someone must be at the bottom.
He said rankings are not as important as setting and meeting standards. Wisconsin
adopted new state academic standards about ten years ago, but Professor Shakhashiri
said all standards must be periodically reviewed.
- Another report from the National Academy of Sciences, on kindergarten through
eighth grade education, has also called for changes. Professor Shakhashiri
said the report also calls attention to important issues. The report says
doing science should be much more than reciting facts and setting up experiments,
and Professor Shakhashiri agrees. The report says the next generation of standards
should include four intertwined and equally important strands that comprise
the committee's definition of proficiency in science:
- “First, students should know, use, and interpret scientific explanations
of the natural world.
- Second, they should be able to generate and evaluate scientific evidence
and explanations.
- Third, they should understand the nature and development of scientific knowledge.
- And finally, students' work should include active participation in scientific
collaboration and discussion.”
- A caller said teacher pay has a huge effect on the quality of education.
The caller said that in her city, Dubuque, Iowa, younger teachers need second
jobs to make ends meet, detracting from the time they can devote to preparation
for classes. Professor Shakhashiri said teacher pay in the U.S. is low and
asserted that teaching is in danger of becoming a blue collar profession.
He said bold action is needed to attract and retain top quality teachers.
If the pay could be doubled, he said that would inspire current teachers,
help recruit good new teachers and elevate the value of teaching. He said
the discussion should be about ways and means of accomplishing this.